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Thread: Coronavirus - II

  1. #2371
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    OANN merely allowed the doctors a platform, thus allowing them to present their scientific and firsthand knowledge. Do you have any proof that they're not doctors and/or that they're lying? Or, are you just wanting to silence any and all apposing views to your own?
    I've spent a fair amount of time watching OANN until I just got sick of their misinformation. In short, they might as well be a propaganda ministry for the current administration. As for "opposing views", this isn't a case of pure opinion. There are expert views on what we should be doing to fight this pandemic based on medicine, science, and decades of prior experience. If we don't do these things, more people die and the disease spreads. turbodog's posts all seem to be based on good science.

    You say the cure shouldn't be worse than the disease. That's a false dichotomy. Any economic damage inflicted by shutdowns can be mitigated with government intervention. The truth is we can't have an economy without first getting the disease under control. And until we have a widely distributed vaccine, masks and social distancing are what we have to do if we want to even partially reopen. If we keep refusing to do these things, and the case numbers go higher, we'll have to implement a complete shutdown again. What the US is doing now is like continually picking at a scab instead of letting it heal.

    This isn't a case either of everyone having to suffer just to protect a small group who is a lot more vulnerable. We don't know much about this disease. It does affect all age groups, even if it affects the young far less. We don't know what kind of long-term effects those who supposedly recovered will have. The economic costs of letting it run rampant far exceed those of trying to mitigate it until we have a vaccine. And then there's the issue of hospitals getting overwhelmed. The case mortality rate is currently somewhere around 0.5% to 1%, but that assumes supportive care at hospitals for severe cases. If hospitals get overwhelmed, those numbers jump by a factor of 5 to 10, along with those who die unrelated deaths because they couldn't get medicare care. That could be 8 figures of deaths in the US alone. Think of the huge economic cost of that, plus the huge disruptions to supply lines if perhaps a third of the population is too sick to work. The side effects of that could dwarf the numbers killed by the disease itself. Even worse, the more the virus spreads the greater the chance it could mutate into something different. Most viral mutations result in lower mortality rates but it could go the other way. We'll be right back to square one.

    The countries which handled this well followed science and medicine, and ignored the advice of laypeople. The US did the opposite. I hope a vaccine comes along soon because I'm not seeing anything else which will keep us from having at least a few million deaths over the next year or two.
    Last edited by jtr1962; 10-17-2020 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #2372
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    It's not hard to find plenty of legitimate sources condemning OANN, with proof. The only source I find saying OANN is legit, is OANN themselves. So, I recommend using caution for the source(s) that one gets information from, OANN or otherwise, covid or otherwise.

    For that matter, any source that directs to facebook/youtube video automatically raises alarm bells.

    If one is comparing deaths & infections it seems meaningful to compare deaths as a percent of infections. So today's deaths are infections from ~4 weeks back, give or take.
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  3. #2373

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    It would be so great if we all could meet in person to dicuss all of this!. I feel face to face brings something extra to the conversation.. But for now I hope ya all stay healthy I truly love you all! I can't believe I've been on this forum for so long damn near 2 decades. Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?
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    *Flashaholic* Chauncey Gardiner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Regardless of the people willing to provide the platform - are the doctors credible? If not, why not?
    The question is no longer - What will they do? It's now - Is there anything they won't do?

  5. #2375
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post

    Mute and nonsensical point given that the infection rate is rising.
    I used the wrong word. Should've used moot. turbodog informed me of my error and did it, to his credit, in a classy way. Via PM.
    The question is no longer - What will they do? It's now - Is there anything they won't do?

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by raggie33 View Post
    It would be so great if we all could meet in person to dicuss all of this!. I feel face to face brings something extra to the conversation.. But for now I hope ya all stay healthy I truly love you all! I can't believe I've been on this forum for so long damn near 2 decades. Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?
    Agreed but sadly face-to-face won't be an option for a while. I'm an introvert but even for me this level of isolation is hard.

  7. #2377
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by raggie33 View Post
    Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?
    There`s plenty of ways to assist and they all add up to a whole, but if you want to cut to the chase, then Glutathione, vit C, E,A and D (C and D being the most important), N-Acetyl Cysteine, Alpha Lipoic acid will really hit the "Turbo" button!

  8. #2378

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    All news is manipulated to whichever team you prefer. Always has been since the founding of America. Probably before that. The trick is to take the time to listen to opposing sources.

    There's this famous story of a man who was a prophet and was said could perform miracles by some "news" accounts. He said things that got leaders upset. He was arrested and tried in public. One day the tradition of the crowd choosing between two convicted criminals going free, due to the "free press" getting the local citizenry riled up about this blasphemous prophet dude the crowd had a choice to free a murderer or a rabble rouser. They chose to set the murderer free and execute a man who's words were deemed offensive.

    I really enjoyed harro's perspective. It reminded me of the early period of this covid-19!pandemic in America. Government was picking winners and losers and at first Americans said "cool, as long as my elderly neighbor is saved from it". But then politics got involved and people began to turn on each other. Americas unique freedoms have been both a blessing and a curse. A balancing act between an over excited government and a free populace has magnified those issues. Some want to focus on the number of dead exclusively. Others tend to see that number as no big deal in comparision to the total number of cases.

    Often (not always) those saying "200k dead" are looking at it through a set of eyes of a person who has a steady job, solid living circumstances and has the 'luxury' of being able to predict their next meal. Some are those who ended up in the governments "loser" column. Life through their eyes is not as concerned necessarily on how many have perished but how they are going to feed the household while their governor says "your business or establishment is part of the problem". A case in point is two clothing stores in my town. Neither has an online store. One chose to start selling surplus foods like rice and pop tarts and were deemed essential while the other was forced to close. Guess which one has survived 6 months later. So store clerks, stockers, managers, vendors supplying the store, all were adversly affected. Could they just simply go get another job when there are around 100 people applying for each one open in the area? Could they just uproot and move to where the jobs are? Did that little $1200 check from uncle Sam solve the problem when the note on the home alone is that much each month? Should that family be as concerned about fragile Americans being kept alive by big pharma be concerned that a hospital in the next town over might be full to capacity when their cupboard is nearly empty?

    It's all about perspective. When you've not only walked in another person shoes, but felt their blisters you can honestly have opinion of how that person should feel. Until then it's all conjecture driven by a narrative of propganda for one side or the other. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Stay 6' apart, wash your hands, don't touch your face. 99.9% of us will get through this.
    Last edited by bykfixer; 10-18-2020 at 05:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Nicely put bykfixer.

    Regarding that video linked to by Chance: I could only watch about 5 minutes of it. When the doctor switched from medical opinion to Constitutional issues, she lost all credibility with me.

    IMO, she was credible, when she used other sources to back up her statement that "masks do not protect you from getting infected." That is something that we have been told from the beginning. We don't hear that so much anymore, other than "Wear a mask!"

    In another thread, or maybe it was this one, there was a short discussion on literacy (or rather illiteracy) in America. The percentage of people who can not comprehend complex issues is astounding. I believe that more people wear a mask to protect themselves, than to protect others (should they be an asymptomatic spreader.) Honestly, I don't think I am an asymptomatic spreader, (I've been tested 3 times, each time negative) and don't want to wear a mask. I do when I go to a store, and am indoors. Yes, I believe that there is a slight protection in wearing one, slight. But I wear it for a few reasons.
    1. mandated/requested
    2. it is socially acceptable, and socially encouraged.
    3. by participating (by wearing a mask in public) I am encouraging others to wear a mask, and some of those will be asymptomatic spreaders.
    I therefore am indirectly helping to reduce the rate of spread.

    The experts say that wearing a mask slows the rate of infection, by reducing the sheer volume of virus particles in the air (some of the moisture droplets, containing virus will get caught in the mask). That is what the "wear a mask" movement is all about. Slow the infection rate until there is a vaccine.

    IMO those who continue to argue the point that masks protect the wearer, are missing the point, and in fact prove my next point.

    Many people wear masks to protect themselves. To control the rate of infection, the experts want people to wear masks, therefore to drive home the fact that masks will not protect the wearer, will undermine their efforts to get people to wear them.
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  10. #2380
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    Regardless of the people willing to provide the platform - are the doctors credible? If not, why not?
    Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.

    Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:

    Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.

    I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?

    I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.

    My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  11. #2381

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    Oh but it's a great analogy that expands on your initial statement that I've heard stories of people who always wore masks that still get infected with Covid. In the real world outlier sh_t happens, but it's also infrequent and thus doesn't much move the median outcome.
    I just don't buy the mask bit..... there is way too much going on to decide that they work well and way way too much media hype and political grandstanding involved with it all to not taint any statistical evidence.
    Last edited by Lynx_Arc; 10-18-2020 at 10:17 AM.
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  12. #2382
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    @Poppy,

    The experts don't just recommend wearing masks in isolation and going about your business as usual. It's in combination with washing your hands, social distancing and avoiding being indoors for as long as possible with people whose infection status is unknown. Now that we're seeing the virus may be transmitted much further than six feet we may well revise the distancing guidelines up. Fact is even the experts are still learning about this, which unfortunately means an inconsistent set of messages to the general public. Not helping matters is the poor education level of the American people in general, and their even poorer science education. Those who understand science realize the guidelines may well change as we learn more about this virus.

    Another overlooked way to mitigate the spread is to reduce the number of times you go into communal settings. Prior to the pandemic, I was in the habit of going to the local grocery store 3 to 5 times per week. I bought whatever I could hand carry home. Now I go every 10 to 14 days, and load up the shopping cart each time. The cumulative time in the store going less often is far less than going more often. I also go about 15 or 20 minutes before they close. The aisles are virtually empty. I'm in and out in maybe 15 minutes.

    There's also viral load. Fact is all of us have probably been exposed to the virus no matter how good our precautions. However, the recommendations I give here minimize your viral load when you are exposed. We're not sure exactly how many viral particles it takes to become infected, but below a certain threshold you won't get sick. Medical professionals become sick more often, even wearing PPEs, because they're exposed to high viral loads day in and day out. However, without the PPEs even more would become sick. Also, as you've pointed out, the mask reduces the volume of virus particles an infected person puts into the air, which makes it less likely they will infect others.

    I also think things have become needlessly politicized. And that's the fault of the way we're set up to deal with emergencies. I really think elected officials should be out of the loop in emergencies like this. Instead, once a pandemic is declared by experts, the recommendations by those experts to mitigate it will have the force of law. This will get politicians off the hook, so to speak, while allowing much more rapid response.

  13. #2383

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    I also think things have become needlessly politicized. And that's the fault of the way we're set up to deal with emergencies. I really think elected officials should be out of the loop in emergencies like this. Instead, once a pandemic is declared by experts, the recommendations by those experts to mitigate it will have the force of law. This will get politicians off the hook, so to speak, while allowing much more rapid response.
    What has happened is politicians "in charge" go expert shopping and find one that they agree with and "pass the buck" to that expert and when things go south neither the expert or the politician are held accountable as the expert too often is ALSO parroting another expert's opinion who in turn parrots the CDC or WHO or whatever who IMO are entrenched politically or economically so we get propaganda instead of science. They did that here in our city our mayor bought into the head of the health department who bought into the CDC guidelines and none of them are really doing much but falling in line and if the CDC says that eating radishes reduces the virus infection rates then the health department official would desire to mandate radish eating and the mayor would fall in line when we have a spike and everyone would have to buy and eat radishes or be banned from shopping and/or doing business.
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  14. #2384
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
    I really enjoyed harro's perspective. It reminded me of the early period of this covid-19!pandemic in America. Government was picking winners and losers and at first Americans said "cool, as long as my elderly neighbor is saved from it". But then politics got involved and people began to turn on each other. Americas unique freedoms have been both a blessing and a curse. A balancing act between an over excited government and a free populace has magnified those issues. Some want to focus on the number of dead exclusively. Others tend to see that number as no big deal in comparision to the total number of cases.
    The virus was picking winners and losers, not the government. Those businesses which had to close were those which experts deemed more likely to spread the virus.

    Often (not always) those saying "200k dead" are looking at it through a set of eyes of a person who has a steady job, solid living circumstances and has the 'luxury' of being able to predict their next meal. Some are those who ended up in the governments "loser" column. Life through their eyes is not as concerned necessarily on how many have perished but how they are going to feed the household while their governor says "your business or establishment is part of the problem".
    Here's the problem with this perspective. The implicit assumption here is if government didn't force nonessential businesses to close that they would still be operating at 100%. Truth is regardless of what the government did or didn't do once people started dying fear would keep many businesses empty, or close to it. That's especially true of businesses in the hospitality industry. The end result may well have been practically the same for those in non-essential businesses even if the government allowed them to stay open. Except of course the hospitals would now have even more cases to deal with. As I've said already until we get the virus under control we can't have any semblance of an economy.

    Did that little $1200 check from uncle Sam solve the problem when the note on the home alone is that much each month? Should that family be as concerned about fragile Americans being kept alive by big pharma be concerned that a hospital in the next town over might be full to capacity when their cupboard is nearly empty?
    This problem easily could have been mitigated if the government gave more direct support to people. People shouldn't have to choose between eating and being forced to go to a job where they may well catch covid and get sick, possibly die. Other countries gave more direct support to people. We should have been sending people $1200 a month, not a one-time payment of $1200. Instead, this became politicized, just like mask wearing.

    We also should have encouraged people to save. Those countries which had fewer people suffering from this are typically countries like Japan where people save large amounts out of force of habit. Had most Americans done this, major stimulus spending wouldn't have been needed.

    I read and enjoyed harro's post also but I take issue with this part:

    "What has the lockdown done for this state? From a personal perspective?.......Well, we are now in debt so far, that it has been estimated that a child born today, would not live long enough to see the budget return to a surplus."

    If Australia is anything like the US, chances are their government was already heavily in debt pre-pandemic. Sure, the US national debt rose a few trillion as a result of covid stimulus measures but prior to that it was already in the $20 trillion area. Considering we just went through about a decade of prosperity there is no reason for this. We should have had a national surplus, not a national debt. If Australia is run the same way, then anything a child born now will have to pay is mostly the result of decisions made pre-pandemic.
    Last edited by jtr1962; 10-18-2020 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    What has happened is politicians "in charge" go expert shopping and find one that they agree with and "pass the buck" to that expert and when things go south neither the expert or the politician are held accountable as the expert too often is ALSO parroting another expert's opinion who in turn parrots the CDC or WHO or whatever who IMO are entrenched politically or economically so we get propaganda instead of science. They did that here in our city our mayor bought into the head of the health department who bought into the CDC guidelines and none of them are really doing much but falling in line and if the CDC says that eating radishes reduces the virus infection rates then the health department official would desire to mandate radish eating and the mayor would fall in line when we have a spike and everyone would have to buy and eat radishes or be banned from shopping and/or doing business.
    The key here is to follow the guidelines of a consensus of experts, not just one or two. Do only those things which practically every expert recommends doing. If we had done this, the virus may well have not even came to the US in large numbers in the first place. Remember other developed countries dealt with this far, far better than us.

    Not mentioned in this thread is what we should be doing to keep novel viruses from developing in the first place. Factory farming, wildlife trade, and wet markets are all to blame. We should be discussing this so in ten years we won't have to go through this again.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I just don't buy the mask bit..... there is way too much going on to decide that they work well and way way too much media hype and political grandstanding involved with it all to not taint any statistical evidence.
    The relative efficacy of masks is quite far from unknowable; the wildcards are things like degrees of compliance, exposure, maintenance. I do agree that teach the controversy has done wonders to cloud the issue with large swaths of the public.

    And as has been stated prior...

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?
    I'll take a barrier with a reasonable chance of intercepting water droplets between myself and others over nothing when I'm out in public, especially since my county has been a hotspot of cases in the state and that curve is again rising. I've heard 30% odds of the wearer's mask - and a cloth mask at that - intercepting a dose analogous to a sneeze in the face; I'll take ~1/3 odds on a saving throw vs 0/3.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  17. #2387

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    The key here is to follow the guidelines of a consensus of experts, not just one or two. Do only those things which practically every expert recommends doing. If we had done this, the virus may well have not even came to the US in large numbers in the first place. Remember other developed countries dealt with this far, far better than us.

    Not mentioned in this thread is what we should be doing to keep novel viruses from developing in the first place. Factory farming, wildlife trade, and wet markets are all to blame. We should be discussing this so in ten years we won't have to go through this again.
    The problem is when most experts are clueless the "consensus" is a bunch of clueless "experts". In other words when you have a consensus of parrots the only advice you can get is "polly wanna cracker" or thereabouts.
    I doubt with a world this size and greed and stupidity you are going to ever totally stop viruses from spreading. The problem is 2 fold: Without some minor viruses and flues spreading our immune systems would not be "trained" well to combat them when they do come along and we have little to no control over other countries practices that encourage diseases from developing and spreading and with inept and corrupt organizations such as the WHO who are depended on to police the world..... we are at great risk of it all and have to play defense against outside infectious diseases.
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  18. #2388
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    The problem is when most experts are clueless the "consensus" is a bunch of clueless "experts". In other words when you have a consensus of parrots the only advice you can get is "polly wanna cracker" or thereabouts.
    I doubt with a world this size and greed and stupidity you are going to ever totally stop viruses from spreading. The problem is 2 fold: Without some minor viruses and flues spreading our immune systems would not be "trained" well to combat them when they do come along and we have little to no control over other countries practices that encourage diseases from developing and spreading and with inept and corrupt organizations such as the WHO who are depended on to police the world..... we are at great risk of it all and have to play defense against outside infectious diseases.
    Nearly all viruses are harmless or nearly harmless to humans, so no need at all to stop them from spreading. The key is to control the few that are known to inflict harm and for which we have no cures. If there were inexpensive, effective cures for covid-19, then it wouldn't be necessary to take measures to slow the spread.

    As for most experts being clueless, that's not true by a mile. Our knowledge of this virus is evolving, as are our tools to deal with it. The advice will change from month to month, but that's to be expected. I'll take even educated guesses by experts over advice given by laypeople.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.

    Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:

    Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.

    I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?

    I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.

    My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.
    Well, I got 4 minutes in but the same red flags went up for me. Her shrill tone didn't help matters. Experts don't talk like that. Listen to Fauci or Birx and compare that to her. This piece is typical of the stuff OANN puts out. They did a few pieces on hydroxychloroquine, touting its effectiveness and the refusal of hospitals to use this so-called "miracle" cure. In short, this video is a propaganda piece.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.

    Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:

    Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.

    I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?

    I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.

    My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.
    Most people seek that which reenforces their firmly held beliefs. Human nature. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video.

    Are you aware people earn doctorates in all the sciences? From whom do you seek medical advice and treatment, medical professionals or doctors of engineering, math, political science ...?
    The question is no longer - What will they do? It's now - Is there anything they won't do?

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    When my BS detector is in the red I don't see a reason to continue. If my BS detector was green, but my 'feelings' detector was in the red I would have continued.

    It smacks of illegitimacy when the reporter/host calls them medical professionals... it's a way of weaseling out of who they actually are. We saw white coats. Folks could have been anyone. And if they were ALL Medical Doctors it paid them a disservice.

    And I circle back to her name calling of 'emperor' Fauci. If there's one group that ALWAYS calls a MD by 'doctor' it's other doctors.

    I think we are past the mask 'debate' at this time.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video.
    It's 36 minutes long. Thank you, but no I've got higher-priority demands for my time - especially when the same material could be condensed to a 5-10 minute read.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    When my BS detector is in the red I don't see a reason to continue. If my BS detector was green, but my 'feelings' detector was in the red I would have continued.
    I thoroughly enjoyed that explanation, and have no reason to believe you're not capable of discerning which is which.
    The question is no longer - What will they do? It's now - Is there anything they won't do?

  24. #2394

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    Most people seek that which reenforces their firmly held beliefs. Human nature. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video.

    Are you aware people earn doctorates in all the sciences? From whom do you seek medical advice and treatment, medical professionals or doctors of engineering, math, political science ...?
    Political Science is an oxymoron.

  25. #2395

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    I wear a mouth and nose cover so that the people who work in the store I'm in don't get in trouble. I used to wear one in the early days of flatten the curve, long before mandates. Between the unknowns and my allergies I did not know if I was a typhoid Marty so I just wore one. I really don't care if Bob or Jane do or not because they are going to be at least 6 feet away from my happy arse anyway.

    My little dental mask says "covid-19 sucks"……
    John 3:16

  26. #2396
    KITROBASKIN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    The state of New Mexico has once again tightened restrictions because of an increase of COVID. We have a state population of a little more than 2 million, there have been 934 deaths (I have no way of knowing the accuracy of those numbers) attributed to the virus (.047%, right? ) and current hospitalizations of 171 (the list I found reported about 3900 staffed beds in hospitals).

    The depression, low motivation and lack of academic performance I see through Google Meets is palpable. Adult educators who were already burnouts and slackers are sitting-pretty at home. Adults who care, are facing the challenge, learning as they go and fighting the good fight. The students I see who were struggling before the lockdown, are in worse shape now, with poor quality home internet creating horrible, horrible frustration added on to the difficulty learning the basics of reading and math. Online academic programs are working OK for some, but not these kids. Mental health is taking a hit. Weight gain from lack of exercise is evident.

    One of the most incredible sights though, is to see Kindergarten class through a Google Meet. Every student frame is a bundle of kinetic being, learning the skill/impediment of containment.

    The difficulty of bringing students back to school is logistically daunting, and we are learning from the early-adopter districts.

    Thanks for listening.

  27. #2397

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Let's get some facts straight. A mask does not protect you directly from getting corona virus. The virus is so small, N95 masks and HEPA filters can fail getting the virus out of the air. Other people's masks and social distancing protects you to a degree. They limit the amount of viral load into the air, but do not eliminate the risk completely. Once the virus is in the air in your vicinity, your only effective protection would be a hazmat suit. Let's not kid ourselves. This virus can be deadly, but it can be treated, especially if dealt with quickly. It does seem to affect the elderly and those with preexisting conditions far more than healthy and young people. I think we should be allowed to evaluate that risk on a personal level and make a decision for ourselves whether or not we lock down, wear masks, or avoid work. Having no restrictions on certain protests while churches are getting fines and shut down isn't helping. The law has to be applied equally, or it's unconstitutional. That goes for picking winners and losers in business as well. Nowhere in the law does it give the government the right to name some businesses essential and some not, especially when they make exceptions for their own. You cannot shut down gyms in a state except for ones exclusive to government workers. We can't allow only a few select politicians to get haircuts while it's illegal for everyone else. This hypocrisy shows everyday people that the politicians need to end these lockdowns soon or risk liability from lawsuits and find new jobs. For many, the cure has become worse than the disease. Protections for renters are running out and didn't cover those under leases. In most cases, property owners had little to no protection and in many cases had to keep their renters rent free while still having to pay their property taxes. Unemployment coverage ran out. We are seeing a permanent shift away from people living in cites to living in larger homes in more sparse areas with Wi-Fi and Zoom. People are voting with their feet knowing they can take their paychecks with them. There is no incentive to move to a city with draconian lockdowns, everything closed, no school, and increasing crime. If you are going to be locked down at your house, you'll want a bigger house with a yard for outdoor activities unencumbered by a mask. This puts cities on lockdown into a financial death spiral. Before this is over, there is a possibility that the lockdowns could cause financial collapse of entire nations. There is a risk that the subsequent unrest could cause more deaths than the virus. We need to end the nanny state mentality before we wake up to find ourselves in a totalitarian dictatorship. It's time to get out of the diapers and fire the nanny.

  28. #2398
    *Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    @Hooked on Fenix,

    Your post sums up exactly why the US failed miserably to deal with this while many other countries had success. Instead of just initially buckling down and doing what we had to do we decided to make this a referendum on freedom, except now thanks to our failure to control it people actually have less freedom because many of the things they used to do have a good chance of making them sick. The problem with the type of thinking you're espousing here is that nobody lives in a vacuum. People deciding what to do based only on their "personal risk" is such a flawed policy that it isn't even funny. For starters, how do you even know your personal risk? I know I don't. Healthy people have died from this and 110 year olds have survived. You don't know what will happen until you get it. And whether or not treatments exist is moot if hospitals get overwhelmed to the point they did in NYC and Italy where doctors were doing triage for a while.

    Next, even assuming you can know something like your personal risk you don't know if you're an asymptomatic carrier. The more people ignore guidelines, the more the virus spreads. That means even people who are trying to be careful and rarely venture out, like myself, now have a much greater chance of contracting it when buying groceries, or even opening a package or letter, because of people making decisions on their own, instead of following guidelines. If this was something that affected you and only you, like wearing or not wearing a seat belt, I'd say go for it and do what you want. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

    Next, I'll readily admit I'm not happy with how some guidelines have been applied inconsistently. If there's a ban on large gatherings, then we shouldn't have protests, either, nor should our President be having these rallies. And "essential business" should basically mean ones which are necessary for people to get essential supplies or services. Nonessential businesses shouldn't be open only to the politicians or the connected or government workers. Either it's closed for everyone or open for everyone.

    As for the financial difficulties many are in, this is really where the politicians have failed miserably. On day one they should have had a plan to replace lost income until businesses could safely reopen. But in any case a lot of the blame for the situation we're in lies with the people themselves. If we had followed guidelines and gotten case numbers down to very low levels, we could have already mostly reopened if we had a system of testing and contact tracing in place. In fact, South Korea used those things to largely avoid shut downs.
    Last edited by jtr1962; 10-18-2020 at 11:29 PM.

  29. #2399
    *Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Two articles which are very relevant to this topic:

    This one is on the death of expertise:

    https://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17...-of-expertise/

    To a large extent this is a big part of the reason why the US has handled the pandemic so poorly.

    And here is a guide to the emergency powers of the US government:

    https://www.heritage.org/the-constit...ergency-powers

    Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.

  30. #2400

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    HoF, I concur.

    Dennis Miller tried to warn us a long time ago. Rough times face us like most can't or won't imagine in America and we did it to ourselves. This pandemic thing? Pffft, this is nothing compared to the perils that await if we don't figure out our government is not the solution.

    I like it to "welcome to 1984. We have free milk and cookies here".
    Last edited by bykfixer; 10-19-2020 at 05:01 AM.
    John 3:16

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