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Thread: Coronavirus - II

  1. #1711
    Administrator Greta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I wonder where you get a certificate of immunity these days?
    Maybe an antibody test?

  2. #1712

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    Maybe an antibody test?
    maybe... but from some of the garbage I've read about this virus the "experts" are claiming there is no immunity to it that some people get it and get infected yet again.
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  3. #1713
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    According to the CDC guidelines, if you have trouble breathing you shouldn't wear a mask at all
    He didn't say he had breathing problems just that a mask requires more effort. I happened to hit on a lucky cache of decent cloth models, but have used various ones in the past. Honestly, the easiest ones I have seen are the half face respirators. Large surface area = less resistance to airflow.
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  4. #1714
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    Default Coronavirus - II

    Broadway actor that had pneumonia later discovered it was covid has passed away. Sad for his wife.
    Last edited by bigburly912; 07-05-2020 at 09:10 PM.
    Big butnotsomuch-burly

  5. #1715
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    Ok so I was actually doing some research on just this the other day and I found... Bora Bora!

    "French Polynesia, which hasn’t had an active case of COVID-19 since May 29, has recorded 60 confirmed cases of the virus in total and no deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University, which tracks the spread of the virus."

    https://www.travelandleisure.com/tra...irus-reopening

    You're welcome!
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  6. #1716
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by archimedes View Post
    I find it tiring to breathe through a brand-new properly fitted N95 for any significant length of time, and that is with only light physical activity.
    Ditto. I reserve wearing an N95 only for indoor use in close quarters (e.g., grocery stores, Costco) where social distancing is iffy.

  7. #1717
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    He didn't say he had breathing problems just that a mask requires more effort.
    I understand that. But I think you get my point?

  8. #1718
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    I am standing a little bit outside, since I am not in the USA. But the last few pages there were discussions about the masks if they help or not, .... looks kind of strange to me.

    In most EU countries no one has a problem wearing a mask, even if it is annoying. But the reality shows it helps to reduce the effective range of the aerosol that might contains the virus. It is also clear the mask does not help yourself at first it helps others. For me it is totally clear to wear a mask in the urban train or when I am in a shop. It is for me the respect to the others in the train, the shop...
    When you check out the daily infection rate in Spain, France, Italy that were the big hotspot in the EU, the numbers are significant down (daily infection rate is now maybe 10% or lower than the maximum peak was in March / April). One of the reasons was the long complete shutdown and also that in (most?) EU countries you must wear a mask.

    Sometimes it is the better way just do something, even if it is not the 100% solution, instead of discussing and do nothing. If this mask wearing reduces the infections just a little, and a few people will not get infected, not getting sick and not getting the severe variant of COVID19, and not going to die than we all did the right thing.
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  9. #1719
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    I'm gonna kick the hornet nest a little here...

    Please remember to keep in mind that public health officials are communicating a somewhat complex topic to millions of Americans. Then consider that the average US citizen (other countries are similar) reads at an 8th grade level. So few people read at the 'top' level that it was recently dropped from the rankings.

    https://www.wyliecomm.com/2019/03/us-literacy-rate/

    https://wriber.com/writing-below-a-g...reading-level/

    Masks do help. Even if you are wearing a basic mask, it still filters some amount of air. Call it an N05 mask, but catching 5% of particles beats 0%.
    turbodog,
    Lack of literacy in the US, is truly scary.
    Apparently, most people do NOT understand what they read, unless it is written on a 3rd grade level.

    Reading and understanding of complex issues is beyond their grasp. So they rely on what they hear. Yet a person may say one thing, and the other may hear something else. In other words, they will only hear what they want to hear.

    To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!
    My Grand Kids call me Poppy

  10. #1720

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    broadway star Nick Cordero dead from covid 19 spents months suffering
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  11. #1721
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    turbodog,
    Lack of literacy in the US, is truly scary.
    Apparently, most people do NOT understand what they read, unless it is written on a 3rd grade level.

    Reading and understanding of complex issues is beyond their grasp. So they rely on what they hear. Yet a person may say one thing, and the other may hear something else. In other words, they will only hear what they want to hear.

    To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!
    The increasing propensity for videos over articles makes sense in this context. Personally I find this trend aggravating - the information density per unit time is perhaps a quarter of print for me, unlike text it's burdensome to scan it for specific content, and the medium is naturally suited to emotional appeal rather than fact or rational argument which tends to make for inferior content by compare.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  12. #1722
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    I understand that. But I think you get my point?
    Yes. I thought you didn't get _his_. And if someone has lung issues during this time... they are in a bad spot from multiple angles.
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  13. #1723

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    Sorry Monocrom, but masks -ARE- to make others feel better... regardless of how scared and terrified they look and are. We have been told from the beginning that wearing a mask is to protect others from you and not you from them. Right? "Wear a mask. Protect others from you." It could logically be argued that if everyone wears masks then everyone is protected. But those who are -NOT- wearing masks are guilty of not caring about others and not wanting to protect others from themselves. Right? We've also been told from the beginning that you don't have to necessarily wear some industrial or expensive mask... just a two-ply cloth mask will do. But you have said, in great length ad nauseam, they will not do. BUT - when I wear my cute little pink leopard print cloth mask in the grocery, people do not give me dirty looks. Sure, they are still scared cuz... well... it's scary! But at least they don't shun me or try to shame me. They FEEL better cuz I'm doing my part to protect them from me. But if I don't wear my mask? I am the devil incarnate and they all but run screaming down any aisle I am not in. The especially comical thing about that is they are usually wearing a mask that is inferior to even mine and/or they are wearing it completely wrong (covering mouth but not nose, etc.). But hey! THEY are protecting others from themselves, so they FEEL better. It's all about the FEELS, my friend... all about the FEELS.

    Well, I do agree with you about the FEELS. But here in NYC, that FEEL is Fear. Not a sense of comfort. We're in two very different settings. In one where our Governor has done such a horrendously incompetent job of protecting the public (seriously when you have a large city with a higher infection and death rate than most countries do, that is a staggering lack of leadership ability of any kind), the very type of attitude you described is absolutely understandable when folks see individuals walking around without a mask on.

    Yes, they do look at others with a sense of disgust. And I'm sorry, but rightly so. In your setting with infection rates being that tiny, no one should look at you with a feeling of disgust. No one should think you're being selfish and irresponsible. But the thankfully few individuals who do that here in NYC, the most infected city in all of America (and ranking right up there for #1 in the world); it's a completely different story. A mask is a barrier. And yes, if two people are properly wearing decent masks then each one is protecting the other one from their own germs. Especially if they're conversing a few feet apart. Thankfully here, I see the vast majority of people wearing proper masks in the proper manner. With nostrils inside the mask as well.

    When it comes to infection, two people without masks who are standing a couple of feet away; one of them could be infected without knowing it. It would be ridiculously easy to spread the virus to the person they are conversing with. Sometimes very tiny bits of saliva come out when people are conversing. Travels forward. Other person breaths it in.... And that's the issue right there. Not much effort needed to be put in by the virus to spread.

    Same scenario. Both individuals are wearing decent masks. Wearing them properly. Maintaining several feet apart. Now, the virus has to deal with that inner layer of the mask (person whose infected). Next comes good filter material. That's going to be 4 or 5 layers total that the virus now has to get through. Whether it's an N95, KN95, or PPF2 mask. Or 5 layers through a PM2.5 filter housed in a properly hand-sewn/re-usable mask. Then it has to traverse 6 feet or so to get to the outer layer of the mask being worn by the uninfected person. Then more layers of filter material until reaching the mouth of the uninfected individual.

    Realistically, that's not happening. Even with a 3 layer surgical mask worn by both, the likelihood of infection is far lower than if both had no masks on, and were conversing with each other just a couple feel away. And this is something the general public knows because as you've mentioned, that's what they've been told. And it's true. So due to that, in a highly infected setting, yes; people with masks on and absolute fear in their eyes are indeed going to treat someone walking around outside without a mask on as though they're a selfish scumbag! Especially if that individual walks up to them and asks them a question. The probability that THAT individual is infected, is going to be significantly higher in New York than in parts of Arizona. And in a heavily infected setting, that type of attitude is completely understandable by folks who wear masks.

    In a setting with an extremely tiny risk of infection, it's not. In the heavily infected setting where fear is silently running rampant, it's going to be a natural reaction for folks to see others wearing masks all around them, and not get upset or angry. Completely natural in that type of setting. The one where you're in, I agree with you that it's all about FEELING better. Folks see someone without a mask on, they get angry, it's an irrational feeling in your setting; from the masses. A completely rational and understandable one in my setting.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  14. #1724

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    YES!... another person who gets it. The "maskvocates" including health professionals should care that your mask is the most effective but do they allow the health professionals to make their own masks at work? Nope, they get N95 masks and are instructed how to use them, when to change them and we don't get the masks that they are using and are supplied to protect themselves with and they are the "heroes". If they require N95 to protect themselves and cheap home made masks aren't acceptable then why are we sold that anything goes with masks to be "acceptable"? The answer should be we are the heroes because by their own standards most people are wearing inferior masks and going out in public, working even and are at a higher risk than those in hospitals for contracting the virus.
    If they won't supply us with the best masks then why take them seriously about us being "safe" and "stopping" the virus when apparently we are NOT as "safe" or stopping it as well as those wearing the N95s.
    Maskvocates remind me of people who want to get rid of everyone else's guns and hire their own private armed security forces to protect themselves and live in the lower areas of crime in town as many of them have the "best" masks while the poor have to perhaps skip a meal to buy a pile of cheap disposable masks just so they are allowed in the grocery store to buy groceries with the amount of money that they have less of.. left because masks are mandatory in their state/city/etc.

    Okay, one; as a very strong 2nd Amendment Advocate, I don't get the comparison you're making. Not at all.

    Two, I literally answered all of the concerns you've brought up regarding masks. Especially Cheap vs. Quality masks. I've done extensive research on the subject. Including a ton of Trial & Error that has cost me thousands of dollars. Gave you the results of all that, in an earlier post. It's up there. Literally any member of CPF can see it. It's right there. N95s are not the be-all-end-all of masks. Homemade masks are not worthless garbage that don't protect anyone from infection. I literally, in detail, explained all of that for your benefit. I just don't get it. But once again, detailed reply to every concern regarding masks that you brought up in this topic. Took care of that for you. It's up there. Have a good one.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  15. #1725

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Monocrom View Post
    Okay, one; as a very strong 2nd Amendment Advocate, I don't get the comparison you're making. Not at all.

    Two, I literally answered all of the concerns you've brought up regarding masks. Especially Cheap vs. Quality masks. I've done extensive research on the subject. Including a ton of Trial & Error that has cost me thousands of dollars. Gave you the results of all that, in an earlier post. It's up there. Literally any member of CPF can see it. It's right there. N95s are not the be-all-end-all of masks. Homemade masks are not worthless garbage that don't protect anyone from infection. I literally, in detail, explained all of that for your benefit. I just don't get it. But once again, detailed reply to every concern regarding masks that you brought up in this topic. Took care of that for you. It's up there. Have a good one.
    The problem here is if everyone is using quality masks AND NEED distancing rules in place then the effectiveness of masks must not be as good as people think it is otherwise they would not need to keep their distance apparently some virus is coming through masks that can infect people regardless it just reduces the level of virus to statistically reduce the chance of infection but we are being sold that masks STOP infection and keep people SAFE when they outright go farther than recommend distancing they REQUIRE it.
    So which is better at decreasing infections distancing or masks and which masks and what distance is optimum? I don't really think 6 foot is such a magic number I think it was just sort of thought up as it is easy to remember.... 6 feet or 2 meters but why not 10 feet or 3 meters instead would that be better in places than masks and 6 feet? Is 6 feet without a mask the same as 3 feet with a mask?
    The thing is.... I don't think there are enough information and you don't give us a statistical idea of how less of a chance of infection you have with an N95 vs 2, 3, 4 layer mask vs one with a filter vs a cheap cloth mask vs this and that.
    All you have said is "do what I do" and the thing is very few people are going to do as you do and those people are the ones whose crappy masks are the source that is going to infect you, you may lower your chance of infecting others but does your mask protect you better from infection? According to the experts masks are not to protect you but the other guy.
    If this logic holds true you better get out there and tell all the guys in charge to tell people to stop using crappy masks to reduce infections as it may be worse than a non masked person who is 6 foot away vs a crappy masked 2-3 feet away.
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  16. #1726
    Flashaholic* wacbzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!
    While it is unknown exactly who said the following, it sure is apropos...

    ”The best argument against Democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

    Is it entirely possible to have too much freedom?
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  17. #1727
    Administrator Greta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    So new experience today... can't say it was pleasant. I honestly do NOT go out much and when I do, I try to knock out all my errands in one shot then stay home again for the next four or five days. Today was the first day I ventured out since the mandatory mask proclamation from our mayor last week. Honey came with me. We had our masks with us.

    We hit the smoke shop first - no masks worn. They have limited access and a "grab and go" system three days a week for 4 hours each day. Only one person in the shop when we went in... the shop manager. We stayed many feet away, got our smokes and got out. Next we went to the pet store for dog food. People coming and going with and without masks. We didn't wear ours. Got our dog food, a couple of benebones and out the door... less than 5 minutes - everyone was very pleasant. Then to the Chevron. I put my mask on (Honey stayed in the car) and went in. The cashier had her mask over her mouth but below her nose. Her brother, the other cashier, had his mask around his neck. Less than 3 minute transaction... I was sweating by the time I got back out the door.

    Then to the grocery store. Short list, mission is to get in and out. Masks on... off we go. We were in the store for no more than 15 minutes. By the time I got to the check out, I was sweating terribly and feeling lightheaded... and starting to panic. The store manager walked by... mask over mouth, below nose. My cashier.. the same. I lowered my mask to get a couple of clear breaths, raised it back up over nose and mouth while I checked out. We all but ran out the door. Took masks off once we got out the door... and for the first time in my 25 years of living here, I was grateful for the 108 degrees and the lovely 8 mph SW breeze. It was actually refreshing.

    I'm glad I don't have to go out again for another few days. That was a truly unpleasant experience and one I am kinda inclined to -NOT- get used to.

  18. #1728
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by wacbzz View Post
    ...

    Is it entirely possible to have too much freedom?
    Oooooh... we need to take that to the Underground! 'Cuz I think you might be surprised at my thoughts on that... we might just agree on something yet!

  19. #1729
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    Oooooh... we need to take that to the Underground! 'Cuz I think you might be surprised at my thoughts on that... we might just agree on something yet!
    That did run through my mind after I posted it because it might come off as political in nature. I honestly didn’t mean it that way though. I have no problems if you want to remove it (and I’ll find a spot downstairs for it!)...
    The beauty of Science hugely outranks the charms of superstition

  20. #1730
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by wacbzz View Post
    That did run through my mind after I posted it because it might come off as political in nature. I honestly didn’t mean it that way though. I have no problems if you want to remove it (and I’ll find a spot downstairs for it!)...
    No worries. It's a good reminder that some stuff should go downstairs.

  21. #1731
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Reminder that there appear to be significant excess deaths due to c-19 that were mis-attributed to other causes.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...&ICID=ref_fark

    Excerpt:

    Conclusions and Relevance: Excess deaths provide an estimate of the full COVID-19 burden and indicate that official tallies likely undercount deaths due to the virus. The mortality burden and the completeness of the tallies vary markedly between states.
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  22. #1732
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Reminder that there appear to be significant excess deaths due to c-19 that were mis-attributed to other causes.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...&ICID=ref_fark

    Excerpt:

    Conclusions and Relevance: Excess deaths provide an estimate of the full COVID-19 burden and indicate that official tallies likely undercount deaths due to the virus. The mortality burden and the completeness of the tallies vary markedly between states.
    That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!
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  23. #1733
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by bigburly912 View Post
    That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!
    Citation(s) or it doesn't exist.
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  24. #1734
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    Default Coronavirus - II

    The cdc literally says:

    “In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’ In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.”

    That’s not to say the numbers are grossly misepresented and I’m not saying they are. I’m not downplaying this thing, two people I know have died from the virus. However this was a dangerous call for the CDC to make because it puts the narrative out there for people to downplay this virus.

    ““I don’t think in any case are we over-estimating the deaths due to COVID-19. I think most likely we’re underestimating and in some cases we may be underestimating by a lot,” Bob Anderson, who heads the mortality statistics branch at the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, told us by phone. Anderson noted that medical examiners’ offices in the hard-hit state of New York are overwhelmed, and that the state has had an increase in unattended deaths in which COVID-19 was a likely factor, but no tests were available to confirm.

    “We’re not asking [health care providers] to write [COVID-19] down for everyone who was possibly exposed. We’re asking only if the patient showed symptoms, and they’re reasonably certain” the patient had the disease, Anderson told us. “When the evidence tells you that COVID-19 was the likely cause of death then you should report it as the likely cause of death, whether you have a lab test or not. And medical examiners, physicians, and coroners are trained to make these determinations.”
    Last edited by bigburly912; 07-06-2020 at 06:45 PM.
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  25. #1735

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    btw ive predicted all this months ago.most everything in the news ive predicted. i am not pyscic i just see and understand human pyscholgy and etc etc. ps hold on to ya hats for july
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  26. #1736

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    LED's have gotten too bright in our stuff. Many nights I'm awakened by my modem lights blinking.had help with my sig thank you for your help.

  27. #1737
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by bigburly912 View Post
    The cdc literally says:

    “In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’ In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.”

    That’s not to say the numbers are grossly misepresented and I’m not saying they are. I’m not downplaying this thing, two people I know have died from the virus. However this was a dangerous call for the CDC to make because it puts the narrative out there for people to downplay this virus.

    ““I don’t think in any case are we over-estimating the deaths due to COVID-19. I think most likely we’re underestimating and in some cases we may be underestimating by a lot,” Bob Anderson, who heads the mortality statistics branch at the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, told us by phone. Anderson noted that medical examiners’ offices in the hard-hit state of New York are overwhelmed, and that the state has had an increase in unattended deaths in which COVID-19 was a likely factor, but no tests were available to confirm.

    “We’re not asking [health care providers] to write [COVID-19] down for everyone who was possibly exposed. We’re asking only if the patient showed symptoms, and they’re reasonably certain” the patient had the disease, Anderson told us. “When the evidence tells you that COVID-19 was the likely cause of death then you should report it as the likely cause of death, whether you have a lab test or not. And medical examiners, physicians, and coroners are trained to make these determinations.”
    But what you quoted reaffirms the article I posted...
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  28. #1738
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by bigburly912 View Post
    That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!
    So find some of those papers and report back.

    This article from The Economist has seen regular updates. TL;DR: Over a large enough, well-understood population, death rates can be predicted to a reasonable degree of accuracy, thus huge spikes in unknown deaths during a pandemic suggests undercount of pandemic fatalities or deaths from other causes that the healthcare system would have ordinarily prevented were it not for the pandemic.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigburly912 View Post
    Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!
    We know it was very few. But it wasn't a pandemic at the time and we weren't staring down hard limits on ICU capacity.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    We know it was very few. But it wasn't a pandemic at the time and we weren't staring down hard limits on ICU capacity.
    It was in China, first cases were for sure in at least as early as November. I mean worldwide not just in the US.
    Big butnotsomuch-burly

  30. #1740
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    But what you quoted reaffirms the article I posted...
    Apparently you didn’t read what I said at all? I said that by the CDC stating that any unknown death should be attributed to Covid without proper testing just based on “we think that’s what it was” they left an open narrative for anyone that wants to argue the validity of deaths attributed to covid. Anyone can say “well the government is lying because deaths not attributed to covid are called covid deaths”. Even though it’s pretty obvious that more people died from it that weren’t counted as covid.

    Does that make sense? Just those guidelines are enough for someone to twist that into what they want.
    Big butnotsomuch-burly

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