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Thread: Coronavirus - II

  1. #1981
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    I donít care much about the nosepiece but do they fit your head decently? They are cheap enough so I was thinking of buying a pack so I could spread them around to my vehicles and such. Right now I have just one reusable mask and if I forget it at home and have to make an unplanned stop at a store or something I am in a pickle.
    For me they're way too tight. If you only have one reusable mask it's probably a fair stopgap measure but I'm still looking around for a different reusable one.

  2. #1982
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Ok thanks. I will poke around too. Mine was made by a friend and is of high quality but I wouldnít mind getting a pack of 5 or so to leave in various places.

  3. #1983

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    If OK is like MS the state health dept required to the hospitals to keep 25% spare beds available. They recently activated their 'surge' plan which allows this reserve to be 10%. Also, if they stopped non-emergency surgery then beds will free up in a few days. So yes, beds can appear overnight. And these spare beds continue to fill.

    Other countries that masked, distanced, and aggressively contact traced have been able to reopen and enjoy a lower infection rate than we have. But those are countries... not a collection of 50 states each with their own governor and health dept.

    OK surge capacity: https://www.ok.gov/health/Prevention...ity/index.html
    Actually there are beds not in the "normal" hospital system that can be put online they are unrelated to the hospital "spare beds" rather a separate medical clinic that is opened up and then staffed. There are several of these that can be "added" to the spare beds when capacity is reaching too low. In other words it is like showing people the back room and telling them this is all we have then when it is getting full open up a secret door to another back room..... then another one... and so on.
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  4. #1984
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Yes, but be careful... extra beds are ok for certain things but not all.

    C-19 requires isolation ward beds... rooms with negative air pressure. Otherwise the contaminated air gets recirculated and infects EVERYONE. Then there's the issue of equipment and staffing.
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  5. #1985

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Yes, but be careful... extra beds are ok for certain things but not all.

    C-19 requires isolation ward beds... rooms with negative air pressure. Otherwise the contaminated air gets recirculated and infects EVERYONE. Then there's the issue of equipment and staffing.
    I'm sure they could set things up for either covid only patients or non covid patients in alternative beds at a different location and ask Trump for a bunch of ventilators as he has extras and they are making lots of them so many that they can ship them to other countries already.
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  6. #1986
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Ok thanks. I will poke around too. Mine was made by a friend and is of high quality but I wouldnít mind getting a pack of 5 or so to leave in various places.
    Since SO many manufacturers have come out with masks lately I just started looking at sites of companies I already have gotten gear from and like dealing with. Saddleback Leather has some very nice simple and classy multilayer thick cotton masks available, both tie and elastic loop. So I ordered a 5 pack of the black elastic loop masks for $20. I already know their products are of high quality from the things I have of theirs so I am sure these will be nicely made and the price is very good. Iíll post about them in the Mask thread when they arrive.

  7. #1987
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I'm sure they could set things up for either covid only patients or non covid patients in alternative beds at a different location and ask Trump for a bunch of ventilators as he has extras and they are making lots of them so many that they can ship them to other countries already.
    I don't know how far to take this... I'm a pretty detail focused person. I'm also frustrated, seeing the effect bad info is having on us all.

    Not all c-19 hospitalizations need a vent. And even with a vent, the vent exhausts exhaled/tainted air INTO the room air. So you end up with contaminated room surfaces, equipment, entire HVAC system, etc. If there were easy solutions from a treatment standpoint we would not have a problem.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  8. #1988

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    I don't know how far to take this... I'm a pretty detail focused person. I'm also frustrated, seeing the effect bad info is having on us all.

    Not all c-19 hospitalizations need a vent. And even with a vent, the vent exhausts exhaled/tainted air INTO the room air. So you end up with contaminated room surfaces, equipment, entire HVAC system, etc. If there were easy solutions from a treatment standpoint we would not have a problem.
    We have several businesses here that they are installing special hvac systems that can kill the virus they say. We also have a lot of manufacturing here especially in the aircraft industry most likely we are making ventilators here in the city somewhere even.
    I've personally installed AC systems for single rooms made by mitsubishi and there are other brands of these systems that are easily installed in a single room at a time. They have had several months to consider all of this either they were stupid to not prepare ahead for the chance of such spikes or they already set up to handle it.
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  9. #1989
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    It's impossible to prep enough for a pandemic, that's the trick of it. If you expand capacity people respond by acting worse, and then you have the exact same problem. Literally the only route through a pandemic is prevention.

    You can put a UV light in the HVAC and kill _most_ of the virus as it passes through. Are you willing to risk an outbreak in the hospital (that also includes ALL the staff) by doing this? I'd bet the hospital's legal dept and insurance carrier would like to have a word with you.

    A single room a/c is nice, but it does not apply negative pressure to the room.
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  10. #1990

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    It's impossible to prep enough for a pandemic, that's the trick of it. If you expand capacity people respond by acting worse, and then you have the exact same problem. Literally the only route through a pandemic is prevention.

    You can put a UV light in the HVAC and kill _most_ of the virus as it passes through. Are you willing to risk an outbreak in the hospital (that also includes ALL the staff) by doing this? I'd bet the hospital's legal dept and insurance carrier would like to have a word with you.

    A single room a/c is nice, but it does not apply negative pressure to the room.
    I'm sure that all concerns would be accommodated as a clinic with no patients in it could be upgraded easily compared to an occupied hospital including proper health concerns for the virus. I don't really see an issue other than having enough staff and since they are still limiting medical operations they could possibly ask out of work doctors and nurses to staff it.
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  11. #1991
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I'm sure that all concerns would be accommodated as a clinic with no patients in it could be upgraded easily compared to an occupied hospital including proper health concerns for the virus. I don't really see an issue other than having enough staff and since they are still limiting medical operations they could possibly ask out of work doctors and nurses to staff it.
    Still does not address the negative pressure needed to NOT contaminate the whole facility. Also, if you are on a vent in some clinic... what happens when power goes out? Hospitals are setup for this. There are countless logistical issues at play, legal issues, etc. We can't 'grow' our way out of this. There are already drug/PPE shortages.

    https://www.chthealthcare.com/blog/n...pressure-rooms

    https://airinnovations.com/negative-...ction-control/
    Last edited by turbodog; 07-27-2020 at 10:33 AM.
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  12. #1992

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Still does not address the negative pressure needed to NOT contaminate the whole facility. Also, if you are on a vent in some clinic... what happens when power goes out? Hospitals are setup for this. There are countless logistical issues at play, legal issues, etc. We can't 'grow' our way out of this. There are already drug/PPE shortages.

    https://www.chthealthcare.com/blog/n...pressure-rooms

    https://airinnovations.com/negative-...ction-control/
    I'm sure they can manage to come up with something. If some teenage girls in Afghanistan can make a portable battery powered ventilator I think a bunch of Engineers from 3 different colleges here and a hundred Hvac experts plus a gaggle of doctors won't have any problems fixing up whatever is needed. We don't have PPE shortages here at all 2 months of supplies extra.
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  13. #1993
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I'm sure they can manage to come up with something. If some teenage girls in Afghanistan can make a portable battery powered ventilator I think a bunch of Engineers from 3 different colleges here and a hundred Hvac experts plus a gaggle of doctors won't have any problems fixing up whatever is needed. We don't have PPE shortages here at all 2 months of supplies extra.
    Can do and actually doing are two different things. And doing for one clinic is entirely different than doing for the entire state, entire nation, entire world.

    Did you read the negative air links I posted? Neg pressure room gets air changed 12 times/hour... every 5 minutes. So you've going to snap your fingers and make enough HVAC capacity appear to service that demand? Enough electrical capacity appear to feed the mountain of HVAC equipment that magically appeared?

    We can't grow our way out of this.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  14. #1994

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Can do and actually doing are two different things. And doing for one clinic is entirely different than doing for the entire state, entire nation, entire world.

    Did you read the negative air links I posted? Neg pressure room gets air changed 12 times/hour... every 5 minutes. So you've going to snap your fingers and make enough HVAC capacity appear to service that demand? Enough electrical capacity appear to feed the mountain of HVAC equipment that magically appeared?

    We can't grow our way out of this.
    Actually you just need larger ducts and a bigger blower motor or several blower motors plus some filtering and venting systems and most likely larger blowers won't be a big electrical capacity issue it is when you need a lot more compressor power that you will have big issues and you don't need an ice box for patients.

    You could also drop a new package unit on the roof made specifically to do what is needed and it is pretty easy to run power to a roof unit. I've seen package units swapped in/out in a day or two.
    Last edited by Lynx_Arc; 07-27-2020 at 04:50 PM.
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  15. #1995

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    they started baseball again looks like it is already canceled . who did not see this coming?
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  16. #1996
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    The only way that sports can work during the pandemic is if all of the teams are living in a "bubble" like in Orlando, and nobody sneaks out for pizza or goes to a club.

  17. #1997
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    Actually you just need larger ducts and a bigger blower motor or several blower motors plus some filtering and venting systems and most likely larger blowers won't be a big electrical capacity issue it is when you need a lot more compressor power that you will have big issues and you don't need an ice box for patients.

    You could also drop a new package unit on the roof made specifically to do what is needed and it is pretty easy to run power to a roof unit. I've seen package units swapped in/out in a day or two.
    Normally I would have taken the conversation to a PM by now, but like I said I'm pretty tired of bad information coming out so I'm going to keep it all here, above board.

    And I know this is more HVAC load calculation than pandemic discussion, but here we go anyway...

    In a negative pressure hospital room the air changes out every 5 minutes according to spec. This does NOT mean circulated. This means sent outdoors, lost, wasted, vamoose, history.

    To achieve this you will greatly have to up-size your HVAC equipment as normal HVAC operation recirculates air that is already fairly close to desired temp. This is NOT achievable with simply larger ducts and higher CFM fans.

    It's basically a complete overhaul of HVAC, electrical, plumbing (for condensate), mechanical (installation of more/larger HVAC), mechanical (properly sealing the room to be airtight), mechanical (putting exhaust fans in place), mechanical/electrical (installing negative pressure sensors), employees (training on how to monitor neg pressure sensors and perform tests), and permitting/inspections for all of the above.

    In addition, all the hospital HVAC I am familiar with uses chilled water anyway which is a whole other ball of wax.

    Again, we are are comparing what's technically possible in one hospital with retrofitting the entire USA healthcare facilities, and doing it in the next few weeks?

    Are we done now?
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  18. #1998

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotonWrangler View Post
    The only way that sports can work during the pandemic is if all of the teams are living in a "bubble" like in Orlando, and nobody sneaks out for pizza or goes to a club.
    i was bummed when the olmpics was delayed . i wait every four years to watch i love it so much all countrys treating each other nice
    LED's have gotten too bright in our stuff. Many nights I'm awakened by my modem lights blinking.had help with my sig thank you for your help.

  19. #1999

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Normally I would have taken the conversation to a PM by now, but like I said I'm pretty tired of bad information coming out so I'm going to keep it all here, above board.

    And I know this is more HVAC load calculation than pandemic discussion, but here we go anyway...

    In a negative pressure hospital room the air changes out every 5 minutes according to spec. This does NOT mean circulated. This means sent outdoors, lost, wasted, vamoose, history.

    To achieve this you will greatly have to up-size your HVAC equipment as normal HVAC operation recirculates air that is already fairly close to desired temp. This is NOT achievable with simply larger ducts and higher CFM fans.

    It's basically a complete overhaul of HVAC, electrical, plumbing (for condensate), mechanical (installation of more/larger HVAC), mechanical (properly sealing the room to be airtight), mechanical (putting exhaust fans in place), mechanical/electrical (installing negative pressure sensors), employees (training on how to monitor neg pressure sensors and perform tests), and permitting/inspections for all of the above.

    In addition, all the hospital HVAC I am familiar with uses chilled water anyway which is a whole other ball of wax.

    Again, we are are comparing what's technically possible in one hospital with retrofitting the entire USA healthcare facilities, and doing it in the next few weeks?

    Are we done now?
    https://www.infectioncontroltoday.co...ure-rooms-fast
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  20. #2000
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Who knew a "yes you can"/"no you can't" exchange, would yield an interesting source of information from a news source called Infection Control Today. There is an interview regarding testing and vaccines that seems relevant; reminding us about the imperfections of testing and vaccinations. 7 minutes 10 seconds into the video addresses the vaccine question:



    Quick friendly reminders:
    Estimated 30-50% death in Europe from plague in middle ages.
    Less than 1% of world population died from Flu Pandemic of 1918.
    (Someone correct this if wrong) Maybe 1/2 of those infected with COVID have virtually no problems (perhaps loss of smell and taste, like my uncle's college senior grandson)

    Our USA state of New Mexico is seeing current hospitalizations trending down at this moment. We can all expect fluctuations, hopefully of less amplitude as time passes.

  21. #2001
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by KITROBASKIN View Post
    ....
    (Someone correct this if wrong) Maybe 1/2 of those infected with COVID have virtually no problems....
    CDC has revised their estimates of this recently (last updated July 10, 2020 / accessed July 28, 2020) here ....

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...scenarios.html

    They now list their "current best estimate" of this parameter at 40% being entirely asymptomatic, and with a "likely range" that the true value will be from 10% to 70%

    Out of curiosity, I used the Wayback Machine to take a look from the beginning of July for comparison. On July 1, 2020 ... their current best estimate was 35% asymptomatic, with a range from 20% - 50% .... I am a little bit surprised that with far more testing data available, the "error bars" for this parameter appear to be widening ?
    Last edited by archimedes; 07-28-2020 at 12:55 PM.
    ... is the archimedes peak

  22. #2002
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Thanks for the link. Think you made my point for me. Once again, what we can do for one building is impossible to achieve across the US in the next few weeks.

    And from the article:

    "There are few studies as yet testing the effectiveness of establishing temporary isolation wards during a surge, cautions Clements, who was on the team that established the Bay Area temporary ward. Before including a temporary isolation ward in a hospital surge capacity plan, he advises conducting a (successful) full-scale demonstration to uncover any logistical and engineering issues.

    Caring for patients in negative pressure rooms can amplify the usual constraints and stresses for staff. Guangdong Second Provincial General Hospital, in China, came up with a way to help lessen some of the stress."

    We can't grow our way out of this. I wish we could.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  23. #2003
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by archimedes View Post
    ...

    Out of curiosity, I used the Wayback Machine to take a look from the beginning of July for comparison. On July 1, 2020 ... their current best estimate was 35% asymptomatic, with a range from 20% - 50% .... I am a little bit surprised that with far more testing data available, the "error bars" for this parameter appear to be widening ?
    Don't know. We seem to be short on some of the data that could be really helpful... like randomized sampling across the US to see who has recovered (or is infected) that we don't know about... to gain some insight into the 'shadow' group.

    I'm guessing here... but we've got so MUCH data flowing in from so many places it's got to be a nightmare organizing it all. And so much is premature or anecdotal.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  24. #2004

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    I think there is a lot more people who have been "infected" with Covid that have had no symptoms and are not contagious either that unless we test everyone they won't show in the statistics it could be 75% of people infected have no problems and symptoms are indistinguishable from a common cold or allergy symptoms. Our state is going down in infections in most places but the city is still going up for now despite mandatory face masking and threatening to pull business licenses if they don't enforce the mandate.
    So far the statistics I have seen have the death rates from this virus at about 0.5% or less in the category of most current infections around here the rate is probably closer to 0.2% or so.
    From the little I've heard (which can be wrong, as too little accuracy in the media today) people are equating that immunity is temporary and that would possibly render any vaccine similarly in short time which means the virus could get pushed out of the country and 3-6 months later come right back again like it never left when immunity wears off.
    It is quite possible that herd immunity does work but not perfectly and that it may in the end be the only way to get rid of the virus for good.
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  25. #2005

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Thanks for the link. Think you made my point for me. Once again, what we can do for one building is impossible to achieve across the US in the next few weeks.

    And from the article:

    "There are few studies as yet testing the effectiveness of establishing temporary isolation wards during a surge, cautions Clements, who was on the team that established the Bay Area temporary ward. Before including a temporary isolation ward in a hospital surge capacity plan, he advises conducting a (successful) full-scale demonstration to uncover any logistical and engineering issues.

    Caring for patients in negative pressure rooms can amplify the usual constraints and stresses for staff. Guangdong Second Provincial General Hospital, in China, came up with a way to help lessen some of the stress."

    We can't grow our way out of this. I wish we could.
    If you do have existing clinic/hospitals that are more suitable for adapting to Covid vs just a plain warehouse building I agree that the time it takes to adapt is greatly increased as hospitals are designed to be cleaned top to bottom and ventilation is designed to reduce even eliminate contaminants in the air better than normal systems. In our case here we have several medical clinics that are already earmarked for overflow that the public were not told about that may not be totally set up for covid but I believe could be quickly adapted for such use a lot faster than building anything from scratch. There are people whose lives are at stake when a spike happens governments want to close down businesses thinking it will contain the virus. Personally I think that the reason places haven't seen spikes yet is the virus just hasn't been there yet when it does come it will find plenty of targets and whammo.
    You will sooner or later see people adapting buildings for Covid patients very quickly any way they can and although the results won't be perfect they will be better able to help them and contain the virus than otherwise.
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  26. #2006

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Well the governor of my state here has successfully survived Covid 19. He had little discomfort only feeling a little weak one day of the whole 2 week ordeal in quarantine. There wasn't a big deal made about him being sick in the media here even though he refused to mandate masks for the entire states leaving it to the individual cities.
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  27. #2007
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    ... In our case here we have several medical clinics that are already earmarked for overflow that the public were not told about that may not be totally set up for covid but I believe could be quickly adapted for such use a lot faster than building anything from scratch. ...
    One of my first thoughts is that a clinic is a lot smaller than a hospital. So if rooms are converted to neg pressure the neg pressure room volume to rest of facility volume (and HVAC capacity) is a lot different. That said, we are still short of everything else. You need critical care nurses, machines, oxygen, more PPE, other support staffing. It's one thing to flip some room already setup for neg pressure to ICU and another thing to retrofit 'plain' rooms.

    Labs in my area can't even get reagents on a frequent enough basis to run on-time nasal and blood tests for c-19. And cases keep climbing.

    Local cardiac group decided to attend a 'function' the other day. Guess which cardiac group is out on 14 day quarantine now... and considering their sensitive patient type, they will require multiple negative tests before they return to work.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  28. #2008

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    One of my first thoughts is that a clinic is a lot smaller than a hospital. So if rooms are converted to neg pressure the neg pressure room volume to rest of facility volume (and HVAC capacity) is a lot different. That said, we are still short of everything else. You need critical care nurses, machines, oxygen, more PPE, other support staffing. It's one thing to flip some room already setup for neg pressure to ICU and another thing to retrofit 'plain' rooms.

    Labs in my area can't even get reagents on a frequent enough basis to run on-time nasal and blood tests for c-19. And cases keep climbing.

    Local cardiac group decided to attend a 'function' the other day. Guess which cardiac group is out on 14 day quarantine now... and considering their sensitive patient type, they will require multiple negative tests before they return to work.
    Perhaps the volume is less or perhaps they aren't using every room in the clinic I don't really know but we did have 200 more hospital "rooms" appear out of nowhere and I believe that there are even more than can easily be converted to operate for a short time for Covid or transfer non Covid patients to them that don't need negative pressure and filtering as extensive this will leave you with more hospital rooms that do have better systems for isolation than the clinics.
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  29. #2009

    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    my freinds are starting to feel better after more then 3 weeks. they said it was the worse they have ever felt! wear a dang mask please
    LED's have gotten too bright in our stuff. Many nights I'm awakened by my modem lights blinking.had help with my sig thank you for your help.

  30. #2010
    Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus - II

    Locally, hospitals are using surgical suites, labor/delivery rooms, etc for c-19. So that's a source of available rooms appearing overnight.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

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