Jetbeam        
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 35

Thread: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

  1. #1

    Default Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    I want a battery capable of at least 8-10A cont. drain. higher capacity is better. unprotected. Am curious what battery will retain charge the longest in storage, as well as have the longest calendar life with minimal cycling (Maybe drain/charge once a month, and sometimes maybe not for 6mo). The two items in red are non-negotiable, as if they are not conditions that are met, the battery will not function in the role selected for it. Given this criteria, what is the best product on the market?

  2. #2
    *Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Miami, Florida
    Posts
    5,518

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    I want a battery capable of at least 8-10A cont. drain. higher capacity is better. unprotected. Am curious what battery will retain charge the longest in storage, as well as have the longest calendar life with minimal cycling (Maybe drain/charge once a month, and sometimes maybe not for 6mo). The two items in red are non-negotiable, as if they are not conditions that are met, the battery will not function in the role selected for it. Given this criteria, what is the best product on the market?
    Sanyo-Panasonic NCR18650GA.

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    You mean just 1P?

    Doing 3C continuous will mean nothing no matter how good will last many cycles

    LG M36 aka MJ1
    SONY VC7
    Samsung 35E

    The GA is good but not quite as consistent

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Assachusetts
    Posts
    1,099

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Sanyo NCRGA. Specifically the Japanese mfg but the Chinese Panasonic factory one isn't far off (and still tops out most charts). My cell of choice. Have about 50 of em at this point.

    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=91821

    http://52.25.253.50/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93719

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post

    The GA is good but not quite as consistent
    Testing I have seen says the GA is a bit more consistent. My experience has been similar as well. Do you have any data or links? (not trying to be annoying, definitely wanna know!)



    Though you'd be hard pressed to go wrong with the MJ1 either, that would be my second choice no question.
    Proud owner, SkyLumen Nguyen #011
    List of my lights!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    I ordered some LG MJ1's based on NASA test. Sourced from Illumn.
    https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...ells_final.pdf
    I ordered Sanyo NCR 18650GA (Japan) based on this thread. Sourced from Orbtronic

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Assachusetts
    Posts
    1,099

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    WOW that NASA test is really interesting! Thanks for that.

    My only thought on that is, they are probably testing for all kinds of things that have little, if any, impact on us terrestrial earthlings. That being said, they probably DID push the limits and find the extremes, great data to have.

    Cheers!
    Proud owner, SkyLumen Nguyen #011
    List of my lights!

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    I have been reading that if I cut off charge voltage at 4.1V, I will have 90% capacity, but will drastically lengthen service life of the battery? Does this mean a 3300mah battery would perform equal to a 3000mah battery with a full charge, if charged to 4.1V? If this is true, should I FULLY charge them for the first usage or two? Or never EVER above 4.1v? Is this like a car engine that you do not want to never rev to redline and THEN expect much from, or...?

    Also, what battery will have the longest shelf/storage life if charged up and simply left in the light/storage for years, given all of my criteria EXCEPT capacity/mah? Is the answer the same, or is there a lower mah battery that meets the other criteria that has much better chemistry for "We need these on point in 20 years...".

    I ask, as my humble 2005 battery pack harvest batteries endured years of abuse, and have held at 4.16v for over a year in storage, now, after sagging from 4.20v after 30 days, no further degradation, 11mo out.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,707

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    I have been reading that if I cut off charge voltage at 4.1V, I will have 90% capacity, but will drastically lengthen service life of the battery? Does this mean a 3300mah battery would perform equal to a 3000mah battery with a full charge, if charged to 4.1V?
    Correct.

    If this is true, should I FULLY charge them for the first usage or two? Or never EVER above 4.1v?
    The forming charge of the battery is done at the factory. So, there's no need to do anything special when you get the battery. Just charge it to 4.1v. If you ever need a bit more capacity, then top it up to 4.2v. Lithium-ion cells have perfectly happy getting partial charges and discharges.

    I usually do a capacity test with a battery analyzer when I get new cells, and that automatically charges to 4.2v. Also, I like to charge to 4.2v and leave it for a few days, to see if there are any internal shorts that will slowly discharge the cell. But, I don't really need to do that. It's just for peace of mind.


    Also, what battery will have the longest shelf/storage life if charged up and simply left in the light/storage for years, given all of my criteria EXCEPT capacity/mah? Is the answer the same, or is there a lower mah battery that meets the other criteria that has much better chemistry for "We need these on point in 20 years...".
    We don't have any long-term results on any of the decent cells you can buy nowadays. Because, they've only been around for a few years at most.

    I ask, as my humble 2005 battery pack harvest batteries endured years of abuse, and have held at 4.16v for over a year in storage, now, after sagging from 4.20v after 30 days, no further degradation, 11mo out.
    Yup, lithium-ion cells hold storage remarkably well. You will notice that the capacity does drop over time, especially if stored at full charge. But, it's not as bad as what some people claim.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    LFP is a much better chemistry for longevity, both calendar and cycle lifetime.

    A123 is a top notch maker, was in on the initial development of LFP out of MIT, now part of LithiumWerks.

    I am more familiar with their bigger cells, much more convenient for building high Ah capacity packs at high voltages

    but I believe they still sell the tiny 18650 cells also.

    Not cheap.

    And LFP has way lower energy density, why it is rarely used in propulsion use cases, although Tesla's Chinese models are / will be using LFP packs from CATL

  11. #11

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    LFP is a much better chemistry for longevity, both calendar and cycle lifetime.

    A123 is a top notch maker, was in on the initial development of LFP out of MIT, now part of LithiumWerks.

    I am more familiar with their bigger cells, much more convenient for building high Ah capacity packs at high voltages

    but I believe they still sell the tiny 18650 cells also.

    Not cheap.

    And LFP has way lower energy density, why it is rarely used in propulsion use cases, although Tesla's Chinese models are / will be using LFP packs from CATL
    These?

    https://www.18650batterystore.com/Li...EaAlp0EALw_wcB
    Do you have any data on your claims? I am not doubting, just looking for quantification, and figure you know best where to find it. Also how do they perform at very low temps vs the others in this thread?

    I also note their nominal voltage as 3.3. My application will not function below 3.0v.
    Last edited by N/Apower; 08-14-2020 at 09:58 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    Yes those are the latest version, likely better than the below, as per older "A" model.

    Stored in coolish conditions at 50% SoC isolated / no charge / no load will lose maybe 10% capacity at most over twenty years.

    Cycled between resting 4.35V as 100% and

    avg 80% DoD

    below 1C current rate

    maximum LVC 3.1V as 0% DoD only occasionally

    charged at 0.4-5C in warmish temperatures

    will go 7-8000 cycles, EoL defined as 70-75% SoH.

    > Do you have any data on your claims?

    Nope, there are a dozen variables that impact longevity, they all interact with each other, industry is focused on high-C rate EV type applications where they "only" last 3-5000 cycles.

    > Also how do they perform at very low temps vs the others in this thread?

    If by very low you mean in 0°C territory, the only LI chemistry that stands out is LTO, real odd man out.

    With all the rest including LFP, charge rates need to **drastically** get reduced as 0° is approached

    fast charging in freezing temps can instantly render the whole bank scrap.

    Active warming is often implemented as needed, for very fast charging even to 35-40°

    Discharging in cold temps does not cause damage, but rapidly becomes slower and much less efficient, as with old-school lead banks.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    Yes those are the latest version, likely better than the below, as per older "A" model.

    Stored in coolish conditions at 50% SoC isolated / no charge / no load will lose maybe 10% capacity at most over twenty years.

    Cycled between resting 4.35V as 100% and

    avg 80% DoD

    below 1C current rate

    maximum LVC 3.1V as 0% DoD only occasionally

    charged at 0.4-5C in warmish temperatures

    will go 7-8000 cycles, EoL defined as 70-75% SoH.

    > Do you have any data on your claims?

    Nope, there are a dozen variables that impact longevity, they all interact with each other, industry is focused on high-C rate EV type applications where they "only" last 3-5000 cycles.

    > Also how do they perform at very low temps vs the others in this thread?

    If by very low you mean in 0°C territory, the only LI chemistry that stands out is LTO, real odd man out.

    With all the rest including LFP, charge rates need to **drastically** get reduced as 0° is approached

    fast charging in freezing temps can instantly render the whole bank scrap.

    Active warming is often implemented as needed, for very fast charging even to 35-40°

    Discharging in cold temps does not cause damage, but rapidly becomes slower and much less efficient, as with old-school lead banks.
    I have looked up as much data as I can find, and the discharge data for this chemistry doesn't show to be special at all.
    https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/9444.pdf

  14. #14

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    I have looked up as much data as I can find, and the discharge data for this chemistry doesn't show to be special at all.
    https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/9444.pdf
    What do you mean by that?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    What do you mean by that?
    Its ability to retain charge in storage/not being used does not exceed other much higher mah capacity batteries. 50% is only 5-600mah, while a 3500/2=more than the LFP starts with fresh and full.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    Its ability to retain charge in storage/not being used does not exceed other much higher mah capacity batteries. 50% is only 5-600mah, while a 3500/2=more than the LFP starts with fresh and full.
    I did state LFP is less energy dense.

    It does retain its SoC much longer, in fact over just a few years loses hardly any at all.

    But the two factors have nothing to do with each other anyway.

    What 50% are you talking about?

    If you want higher Ah capacity per cell, why are you messing around with these cylindricals?

    How large are the packs you are building?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    I did state LFP is less energy dense.

    It does retain its SoC much longer, in fact over just a few years loses hardly any at all.

    But the two factors have nothing to do with each other anyway.

    What 50% are you talking about?

    If you want higher Ah capacity per cell, why are you messing around with these cylindricals?

    How large are the packs you are building?
    This is for a weapon mounted light.
    https://modlite.com/collections/weap...20414940479547

    I intend to feed it the most reliable food possible. I could sacrifice the runtime, but at 3% loss per month, it does not appear that the LFP battery is superior to the 15 year old LiIon cells I harvested from a laptop, which have only regressed from 4.20 to 4.15 volts over the course of 1 year.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    3% loss is a complete fabrication.

    Truth is well under half a percent per year.

    Is 26650 size physically too big?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    3% loss is a complete fabrication.

    Truth is well under half a percent per year.

    Is 26650 size physically too big?
    Yes, 18650 or 18350 are the only two options.
    Why would a company lie about their product much to their detriment in their data sheets?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    I do not know of course, but my theory is if they told the truth people would not believe it, "everyone knows" batteries have some self-discharge rate, and they think their specs would lose credibility?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    I do not know of course, but my theory is if they told the truth people would not believe it, "everyone knows" batteries have some self-discharge rate, and they think their specs would lose credibility?
    https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstre...=3&isAllowed=y

    file:///D:/Downloads/energies-11-03295.pdf

    Given the massive capacity difference, I am inclined to go with non LFP cells, as even the slight increase in degradation will still put me far ahead in a timeframe I am interested in. I may well buy some LFP cells to T&E, though!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Yes for sure LFP does not compete where high energy density is a priority over lifespan or self-discharge.

    Between the various 3.6-3.7V chemistries,
    NMC
    NCA
    LCO
    LMO

    I am sure there are huge differences in the self-discharge attribute, but I have not seen much in the way of quantified data there.

    Just recognize you are now moving away from this goal:
    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    what battery will have the longest shelf/storage life if charged up and simply left in the light/storage for years, given all of my criteria EXCEPT capacity/mah? Is the answer the same, or is there a lower mah battery that meets the other criteria that has much better chemistry for "We need these on point in 20 years..."
    A few years, sure no problem, but personally I would not go to the 3.6-3.7V chemistries if literal decades were required.

    ______
    Quote Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
    Does this mean a 3300mah battery would perform equal to a 3000mah battery with a full charge, if charged to 4.1V?
    Need to specify which attribute of "performance" you are asking about.

    The lower stop-voltage factor is not as significant to longevity as average DoD%

    As low as 4.05V will work better than 4.15V, but how much mAh capacity you are sacrificing will vary by chemistry of each cell.

    Pushing to the maximum capacity - rated voltage held for CV/Absorb stage until current trails to say 0.01C - is definitely life shortening.

    But doing so a few cycles only occasionally will not have a great impact, as with draining to 3.1V

    one event in itself is not "damaging"

    it is the average treatment over all the cycles that is important.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    The Sanyo Pannys from Japan are excellent. The Sonys are also very good. Buy from a reputable vendor and don't worry. The cells available these days are inexpensive and very good.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    Yes for sure LFP does not compete where high energy density is a priority over lifespan or self-discharge.

    Between the various 3.6-3.7V chemistries,
    NMC
    NCA
    LCO
    LMO

    I am sure there are huge differences in the self-discharge attribute, but I have not seen much in the way of quantified data there.

    Just recognize you are now moving away from this goal:

    A few years, sure no problem, but personally I would not go to the 3.6-3.7V chemistries if literal decades were required.

    ______


    Need to specify which attribute of "performance" you are asking about.

    The lower stop-voltage factor is not as significant to longevity as average DoD%

    As low as 4.05V will work better than 4.15V, but how much mAh capacity you are sacrificing will vary by chemistry of each cell.

    Pushing to the maximum capacity - rated voltage held for CV/Absorb stage until current trails to say 0.01C - is definitely life shortening.

    But doing so a few cycles only occasionally will not have a great impact, as with draining to 3.1V

    one event in itself is not "damaging"

    it is the average treatment over all the cycles that is important.
    Mainly LFP is a turnoff due to the low voltage. Below 3.0v, the light wont function.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    No one should ever let their LFP drop below 3.0Vpc anyway

    An adjustable LVC would be ideal so you could calibrate it to land on a specific DoD% depending on the discharge rate

    but otherwise if a fixed cutoff is required, 3.05Vpc would be the lowest I would allow anyway.

    LTO is not an option here in 1S configuration, but FYI that is the **only** LI chemistry that is not rendered instant scrap by being allowed to discharge too close to zero.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Climb14er View Post
    The Sanyo Pannys from Japan are excellent.
    You need to be more specific, each model is more or less suitable for different use cases

    while some are eclipsed by other makers' cells.

    ______
    The GAs are no longer recommended, as Pajda has repeatedly stated from years of precisely structured comparative testing.

    Also confirmed by many other technically proficient users in the threads I linked to in post #7. GA may shows great performance in initial capacity / power discharge / internal resistance tests when brand new, but it wears very fast in use, showing drastic drop-offs in all three of those factors along with concomitant early/fast waste heat production.

    Even avoiding the extreme voltage "shoulders" 4.10Vpc to 3.2Vpc (80% capacity utilisation) does not help compared with its competitors, especially the most superior models I listed above, e.g. LG MJ1 or M36

    even when the GA's are full -cycled down to 3.05Vpc, close to 10% of their capacity every time

    Also SONY VC7 and even Samsung 35E are dramatically better at maintaining their excellent performance over longer lifetimes.

    Note I am **not at all** saying GA isn't good, if genuine new Grade A are selling cheap grab 'em as fantastic **value**, they are better than 97% of what's on the market,

    but the OP's use case is clearly looking for top-notch performance, cost is not a priority and GA should therefore not be considered.

    Just in case that was the model you meant by "Sanyo Pannys from Japan"
    Last edited by john61ct; 08-17-2020 at 01:20 AM.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    ^^^
    I usually have stayed away from... what's the best, this or that, since joining here in 2003, as opinions... differ. The GA Sanyo Pannys from Japan have consistently provided excellent results for me and many others. The Sonys, look 'em up, are very good these days as well.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Exactly my point, many cells will meet a given use case's needs

    certainly not trying to plug any as being "best", just pointing out the GA is not in the top tier anymore

    At some point cost and availability need to also be put into the picture, and often "good enough" is just that

  29. #29

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    Exactly my point, many cells will meet a given use case's needs

    certainly not trying to plug any as being "best", just pointing out the GA is not in the top tier anymore

    At some point cost and availability need to also be put into the picture, and often "good enough" is just that
    100% agreed, but it is an 18650 battery we are talking about. Within reason, price isn't a concern for 3-4 items. The reason I am not all on board with the LFP chemistry is because I see they begin at 3.6V, and discharge down to 2.5V. They only hold about 1200mah. I am presuming this is linear? If so, I could only get 600mah out of this fuel source, and when you're pulling 8A off of it, that doesn't go very far at all. Certainly not as far as a 3500MAH battery with maybe 80-90% accessible to your application initial, no-matter how beat up and how badly it is used, I would think, even compared to the new "600mah" available fuel source.

    Please correct me if my maths are terribly off or I am incorrect.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Best 18650 battery (with criteria)

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    No one should ever let their LFP drop below 3.0Vpc anyway

    An adjustable LVC would be ideal so you could calibrate it to land on a specific DoD% depending on the discharge rate

    but otherwise if a fixed cutoff is required, 3.05Vpc would be the lowest I would allow anyway.

    LTO is not an option here in 1S configuration, but FYI that is the **only** LI chemistry that is not rendered instant scrap by being allowed to discharge too close to zero.
    I had a question about that. This is the testing I've done so far, and if you require a summary of it:

    Old laptop pack, 15 years or so, heavily used, sat un-used for almost 10 years, then I tore it open and began using the cells and they are excellent. Good as new.





Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •