what is an acceptable vehicle LED lighting upgrade?

I read through the stickies here, but there is a lot of jargon within that leaves me, as a noob, completely unclear on what is acceptable and what is not.

I read a lot that seems to imply "retrofits" are not safe and not allowed to be discussed in this forum, but I'm not even sure what a "retrofit" is and which, if any "retrofits" are acceptable.

As a noob, I see the following, general options available on the market:

1. Drop-in LED bulb replacements for incandescent housings. Are these acceptable for discussion? I see people posting about LED bulbs in this forum.
2. New housings (with reflectors) intended to accept LED bulbs. Are these acceptable for discussion?
3. All-in-one assemblies that incorporate housings, reflectors, and LEDs in one package and are generally not user-serviceable (example: JWPower). Are these acceptable for discussion?

Welcome to this area of the forum!

ZippyDan said:

Drop-in LED bulb replacements for incandescent housings. Are these acceptable

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No, at this time there is no such thing as an "LED bulb" that is effective, safe, and legal.

New housings (with reflectors) intended to accept LED bulbs

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"LED bulbs" are not legitimate (except for standardized replaceable LED light sources, which are an OE-intended product, not one that can be successfully installed in a lamp designed for some other kind of light source), so generally a housing advertised as accepting an "LED bulb" is also fraudulent, unsafe, illegal, etc.

All-in-one assemblies that incorporate housings, reflectors, and LEDs in one package and are generally not user-serviceable (example: JWPower). Are these acceptable for discussion?

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Yes, there's a variety of legitimate LED headlamps of this description. Some of them are very good. There are also lots of imitations and poor-quality units. But as a category, this kind of product has the potential to be effective, safe, and legal, and can certainly be discussed.

If you have factory halogen bulbs and you want to change them to LED, it won't be legal to use on the street because it is considered a modification.

Autowood4 said:

If you have factory halogen bulbs and you want to change them to LED, it won't be legal to use on the street because it is considered a modification.

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That's not actually the reason why it won't be legal to use on the street.

Thanks for the response.

1. I see other people discussing, seemingly, LED bulbs in this forum. Is that because they are not headlights?
2. Are there any other complete headlamp replacement options like JWSpeaker that are generally recommended here?

ZippyDan said:

1. I see other people discussing, seemingly, LED bulbs in this forum. Is that because they are not headlights?

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A lot of the LED 'bulbs' discussed that are not headlamp bulbs are in something of a gray area: Many of them work well in regulated vehicle lighting functions such as turn, stop, and tail lamps, or sidemarker lamps and other functions, but performance can vary greatly from vehicle to vehicle. The 'bulbs' that are "designed" for headlamps (such as will fit in an H4 or HB3 socket) are summarily dismissed because they don't/can't work correctly in a headlamp.

2. Are there any other complete headlamp replacement options like JWSpeaker that are generally recommended here?

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Truck-Lite and Peterson Manufacturing also make decent LED sealed-beam replacement lamps.

Complete headlamps that are designed to replace an OEM's specific design (non-standard composite headlamps) will generally be dismissed because of the difficulty in making a lamp that not only fits the, say, 2016 Chryslux Highwayman or 2019 Corvega, but also conforms to FMVSS 108 (let alone performs well). MUCH more effort is put into fitting the vehicle and "looking cool" than actually performing. The moving target of determining what vehicle is popular, what will be likely to be modded, and will sell enough numbers to justify making this replacement lamp product line means the only work they'll do is making them fit the vehicle and turn on and off-- there's not enough profit margin to make them DECENT.

ZippyDan, do you have particular lamps and/or cars you want to ask about? Nobody's gooing to come execute you for it!

-Virgil- said:

ZippyDan, do you have particular lamps and/or cars you want to ask about? Nobody's going to come execute you for it!

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I do, but I'm also trying to inform myself about the general state of the market and laws - for curiosity's sake if nothing else, but also because I didn't want to violate the forum rules - before I jump in with more specific questions.

I happen to be wanting to modify a motorcycle in a third-world country where I think the laws are lax or non-existent (and would likely not be enforced even if they were existent), but I still want to be informed about what is best for me and other drivers. For example, if I were to pick up a blinding highbeam that would be illegal in the USA, the knowledge I'm gaining here would make me more vigilant about not using them when there is oncoming traffic.

When I'm ready to ask about my particular vehicle, it would be better to start a new thread to keep things organized, right?

Alaric Darconville said:

Truck-Lite and Peterson Manufacturing also make decent LED sealed-beam replacement lamps.

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What about Morimoto? I saw some reviews of their headlamp replacements on youtube, including reviewers that seemed pretty conscientious of analyzing beam patterns and lux, and they seem decent?

Another brand I saw reviewed decently on youtube was KC. Also these brands I saw on Revzilla, unknown to me: Motodemic and Custom Dynamics. I'm just curious if there is any consensus on these other brands.

Also, you mentioned Truck-Lite, and I do see they have a decent complete headlamp assembly, but I also saw that they make a reflector replacement designed for LED bulbs and it also had "acceptable" beam pattern reviews. But we don't talk about that here, right?

you mentioned Truck-Lite, and I do see they have a decent complete headlamp assembly, but I also saw that they make a reflector replacement designed for LED bulbs

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I don't think that's correct, but I could certainly be wrong. Let's have a look; can you please show us what you saw? Link(s)?

I happen to be wanting to modify a motorcycle in a third-world country where I think the laws are lax or non-existent (and would likely not be enforced even if they were existent), but I still want to be informed about what is best for me and other drivers. For example, if I were to pick up a blinding highbeam that would be illegal in the USA, the knowledge I'm gaining here would make me more vigilant about not using them when there is oncoming traffic.

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OK, that makes fine sense (and is very respectable and responsible of you). Regulations, whether we're talking about the US rules or the UN Regulations used pretty much everywhere else, do not specify, define or require good or safe lighting. They specify, define and require legal lighting. There are gaps between what is safe/good and what is legal: some lights are unsafe/bad but legal, while other lights are safe/good but illegal. Getting into the reasons for this would drag the discussion off topic, just be aware that it's the case. Also, lights with fraudulent markings falsely asserting compliance with one reg or another do exist. So the regs are imperfect. But they are better than nothing, so in a country where there are no rules (or no enforced rules), you're virtually always better off picking a reputable-brand lamp that is technically appropriate for whatever lighting application is needed (for example, low beam for the correct side of the road -- whichever side that is in your country) and meets one of the world's recognized technical standards. Could be the US standards, could be the UN standards, could be the old Japanese standards before Japan adopted the UN Regulations, could be Australian ADRs.

When I'm ready to ask about my particular vehicle, it would be better to start a new thread to keep things organized, right?

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Probably so.

ZippyDan said:

What about Morimoto? I saw some reviews of their headlamp replacements on youtube, including reviewers that seemed pretty conscientious of analyzing beam patterns and lux, and they seem decent?

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Conspicuously absent from my short list was Morimoto. Morimoto is among the brands not at all worth considering.

One I left out was Grote, whose offerings are a little hit-and-miss; they have some rebranded Truck-Lite headlamps (good), but also some rebranded Maxxima headlamps (bad).

Another brand I saw reviewed decently on youtube was KC. Also these brands I saw on Revzilla, unknown to me: Motodemic and Custom Dynamics. I'm just curious if there is any consensus on these other brands.

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KC's chief product is a 23 year warranty. While they have the occasional passable lamp assembly, they deal in repeat sales through aggressive marketing and customer retention vis-à-vis that 23-year warranty.

Revzilla, Motodemic, and Custom Dynamics are also purveyors of lamp-shaped toys (as are the aforementioned Maxxima).

Also, you mentioned Truck-Lite, and I do see they have a decent complete headlamp assembly, but I also saw that they make a reflector replacement designed for LED bulbs and it also had "acceptable" beam pattern reviews. But we don't talk about that here, right?

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They have LED headlamps and they have standard form factor headlamps the H4 (HB2/9003), but they don't market them as accepting LED bulbs, they market them as halogen lamps. Perhaps a reseller is selling them and suggesting/insisting that they will accept whatever HB3-shaped toy bulb they are selling will fit it. Mechanically, it probably will-- optically, it won't.

I notice you have a lot of [FONT] and [COLOR] tagging in your posts. If you're using Word or something like that to compose your messages, then copying them and pasting them into the browser window to post, set the document as plain text (or use notepad.exe or Notepad++) so it doesn't carry this unnecessary tagging with it.

Alaric Darconville said:

Conspicuously absent from my short list was Morimoto. Morimoto is among the brands not at all worth considering.

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That's why I came here, to learn.

Speaking of that, and not to be confrontational but to understand better, in these two youtube reviews, they both review the beam pattern and lux measurements, and the beam pattern seems really well defined with a nice cut off. In the first video especially they review many different headlamps, and you can clearly see the difference between the quality options and the cheap Chinese junk.

Can you tell me what these reviewers are overlooking that makes the Morimoto a product you wouldn't recommend?

Alaric Darconville said:

They have LED headlamps and they have standard form factor headlamps the H4 (HB2/9003), but they don't market them as accepting LED bulbs, they market them as halogen lamps. Perhaps a reseller is selling them and suggesting/insisting that they will accept whatever HB3-shaped toy bulb they are selling will fit it. Mechanically, it probably will-- optically, it won't.

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I can't find the one I was thinking of now, so I might have been confused.

Alaric Darconville said:

I notice you have a lot of [FONT] and [COLOR] tagging in your posts. If you're using Word or something like that to compose your messages, then copying them and pasting them into the browser window to post, set the document as plain text (or use notepad.exe or Notepad++) so it doesn't carry this unnecessary tagging with it.

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Yes, I had started writing my reply and then left my computer for a while. I anticipated I might be automatically logged out when I went to post, so I copied the text out of the browser just in case (I've been burned before). It seems this newer forum software autosaves what you were writing when it logs you out though, so that's cool.

ZippyDan said:

not to be confrontational but to understand better, in these two youtube reviews, they both review the beam pattern and lux measurements, and the beam pattern seems really well defined with a nice cut off.

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The "beam pattern" on a wall is not the same as measuring the beam pattern with a photogoniometer. Cutoff is not the sole determinant of headlamp performance, and the amount of light that comes out below the cutoff can still result in unsafe amounts of glare for other drivers. At one point in one of the videos they say they are measuring lux at 25 feet. That's not going to tell you much about the real lamp performance (at 55+mph, if you didn't see it until it was 25 feet away, you'll almost certainly hit it). And the reviewer in that first video says a particular lamp is "DOT approved", demonstrating he does not understand how our vehicle lighting regulations work (the DOT does not approve regulated motor vehicle equipment, rather it's a self-certification basis).

Can you tell me what these reviewers are overlooking that makes the Morimoto a product you wouldn't recommend?

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While it doesn't tell the whole story, Morimoto isn't a Japanese company (the name sure suggests that, but it was created in the US and the products are made in China), rather it's just a brand designed to conjure the image of a legitimate Japanese company.

In the past, they've referred to the functional reflective surfaces inside a headlamp projector as being chrome. They speak of "DOT approval". They make HID kits, which are unsafe and ineffective, and illegal (as an arc-discharge capsule can't/won't work correctly in a lamp assembly designed for a filament bulb). They sold (and perhaps still do) silica gel packs for installation in their headlamps to prevent fogging; no legitimate headlamp requires these because legitimate headlamps have a combination of sealing and ventilation to keep moisture from fogging up the inside of headlamps. (Also, you get free silica gel packs with your purchase of headache medicine or consumer electronics )

ZippyDan said:

youtube reviews, they both review the beam pattern and lux measurements, and the beam pattern seems really well defined with a nice cut off.

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It's a mistake to use the cutoff (or the apparent cutoff in photos and videos) as a good/bad gauge for headlight beams. That's a very common myth that sharp cutoff = good beam. There are headlights ranging from poor to excellent with relatively sharp cutoffs, and there are headlights ranging from poor to excellent with relatively soft cutoffs, and there is definitely such a thing as too sharp of a cutoff.

Can you tell me what these reviewers are overlooking

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It's not as much what they're overlooking, it's more what you're not supposed to know: "Headlight Revolution" and "The Retrofit Source" are both just operating names of one company. The technical claims expressed and implied flow downhill from there. If you follow them back uphill, you will eventually find yourself looking at a cash register. They might pretend like they're objective/neutral/3rd-party reviewers, and take a tone like they're educating the public out of the goodness of their heart, but they're not.

Alaric Darconville said:

Revzilla, Motodemic, and Custom Dynamics are also purveyors of lamp-shaped toys (as are the aforementioned Maxxima).

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Revzilla is just a retailer, so the products range from junk to high end. I can't speak for Custom Dynamics, but Motodemic uses JW Speaker headlamps for their LED conversions. What they also provide is the mounting hardware for many motorcycle makes/models so the install for the end user is as straightforward as possible (they would not need to fabricate their own mounting hardware), and the pricing reflects that.

I have expanded my earlier post in this thread.

Thanks for all the information, everyone.

It looks like the safest and most responsible bet is to just go with J.W. Speaker.