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Thread: Update on Lithium chemistries

  1. #1
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Update on Lithium chemistries

    Hi all,
    For a while this post from LuxLuthor has been my reference as regards the main Lithium Ion categories, their dangers and voltages.
    But this dates back to 2008, and I realize there are now far more chemistries than dealt with in this post.

    The "Chemistry" filter of this battery search tool shows:
    • ICR
    • IFR
    • IMR
    • INR
    • NCR
    • NMC
    • NCA
    • LiCoO2
    • LiFePO4
    • LiMn2O4
    • LiNiMnCoO2
    • LiNiCoAlO2
    • LiCoSiO2

    Using the search tool of CPF on "chemistry" in thread title gave me only partial updates, and dating back 3 years ago or more.
    Therefore an update on all these chemistries would be most welcome, in advance to all battery genius!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    ICR is LiCoO2

    IFR is LiFePO4

    IMR is LiMn2O4

    INR is LiNiMnCoO2

  3. #3

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Lotsa luck, the sources that try to be comprehensive have the worst inaccuracies.

    Best to just search for actual data on specific models from testing by trusted forum members, not just power performance but cycling longevity too.

    IMR, INR, and ICR are just part of manufacturer's model number prefixes, not actually designating chemistries. Yes they are **supposed** to designate particular chemistries for the manufacturers, but that turns out to mostly be marketing spin.

    IMR is usually LMO, old "spinel"

    INR and ICR are used for multiple hybrid chemistries but the most popular are NMC & LCO.

    INR can also be NCA

    NCR is usually NCA

    LFP is its own completely different chemistry, not at all interchangeable with the above 3.6-3.7 Vnom chemistries and their hybrids.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    Lotsa luck, the sources that try to be comprehensive have the worst inaccuracies.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    Best to just search for actual data on specific models from testing by trusted forum members, not just power performance but cycling longevity too.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    IMR, INR, and ICR are just part of manufacturer's model number prefixes, not actually designating chemistries. Yes they are **supposed** to designate particular chemistries for the manufacturers, but that turns out to mostly be marketing spin.
    I believe this to be a gross exaggeration at best, and wildly inaccurate at worst. Marketing never really lists chemistries. Show me one Li-ion cell labeled ICR that is not LiCoO2; show me one INR labeled cell that is not LiNiMnCoO2; show me one IMR cell that is not LiMn2O4. Many cells are hybrids now, but I seriously doubt anything exists as what you describe, unless it is a counterfeit cell.


    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    IMR is usually LMO, old "spinel"

    INR and ICR are used for multiple hybrid chemistries but the most popular are NMC & LCO.

    INR can also be NCA

    NCR is usually NCA

    LFP is its own completely different chemistry, not at all interchangeable with the above 3.6-3.7 Vnom chemistries and their hybrids.
    IMR is LMO in the most important representatives, but possibly could include hybrid chem as the rarer exception.

    INR and ICR should not be classed together and explained confusingly like this. They are not similar.
    NMC is INR, and LCO is ICR, and this in all of the most important representatives, but there is low possibility that INR (not ICR) could include hybrid chem as the rarer exception.

    NCA will have the general formula LiNixCoyAlzO2 in the most important representatives. One could exaggerate and (strictly inaccurately) say this is a hybrid INR without the manganese or hybrid ICR with nickel and aluminum.

    NCR is an acronym for "Nickel Cobalt Rechargeable." For all intents and purposes, INR and NCA are NCR, but not necessarily visa versa, just like Socrates and Plato are men, but not all men are Socrates and Plato.

    LFP is IFR is LiFePO4. It charges to 3.7V, but as soon as the charge cycle is complete, resting voltage will drop very quickly to 3.6V in a new cell, and 3.34V-3.4V in a cell that has had several recharge cycles. The nominal voltage of LiFePO4 is 3.2V.

    One acronym is missing, LIR, which stands for "Lithium Ion Rechargeable," and technically encompasses all Li-ion cell chemistries that are, ever were, or ever will be.

    Sounds like I am speaking authoritatively, which is not my intention, and I hope other members can confirm my assertions. (Actually, I hope HKJ drops in and points out my errors.) All I am attempting to do is reduce the unnecessary confusion, and despair, you have introduced.

    Always get your Li-ion cells, whatever chemistry, from reputable sources.
    Last edited by chillinn; 09-24-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Some examples I believe showing "INR" in the model# not necessarily meaning NMC

    Samsung

    INR18650-15Q & INR18650-15L
    INR18650-20R INR18650-20Q
    I believe are all LMO

    INR18650-29E I believe is NCO, and

    INR21700-50E is NCA

    _____
    LG
    INR18650MJ1 I believe is NCA
    Last edited by john61ct; 09-25-2020 at 05:22 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    I believe in discussions, best to just use the canonical chemistry names

    NMC LMO LCO NCA etc

    and forget the INR IMR etc

    since they are at best redundant.

  7. #7
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Thanks everybody for your replies.
    Quote Originally Posted by chillinn View Post
    NCR is an acronym for "Nickel Cobalt Rechargeable."
    Could you please decode the other acronyms:
    • ICR
    • IFR
    • IMR
    • INR
    • NMC
    • NCA

    Actually, I hope HKJ drops in and points out my errors
    Yes HKJ's advice will be welcome.
    In the meantime, I see from his estimated capacity tables that there are huge differences in the Voltage <--> SoC relation, between different chemistries.
    Up to now, in order to take care of my Li-ion batteries (only 10180 for now) I used these open circuit values from LuxLuthor's post:
    4.2V Full 100%
    4.1V About 90%
    4.0V About 80%
    3.9V About 60%
    3.8V About 40%
    3.7V About 20%
    3.6V Empty
    <3.5V Overdischarged
    <3.0V Cell damage occurs


    But HKJ's tables show the reality may be very different: 40% SoC (best value for long term storage according to batteryuniversity) is 3.8V for some, 3.6V for others.

    Always get your Li-ion cells, whatever chemistry, from reputable sources.
    Is eu.nkon.nl one of these?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Cool, so much information! By the way, did someone deal with IBR? I saw live only 1 time in sf dominator.

    https://shop.lipopower.de/LiIon-Rund...0A-37V-2800mAh

    https://www.walz.com/downloads/suppo...0051201402.pdf

    The IBR26700A cylindrical cell consists of a lithium Manganese and Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt oxide positive electrode and a graphitic carbon negative electrode providing 3.7volts and 2800mAh

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    The multiplicity of battery naming systems is what has contributed to an enormous amount of confusion.

    I think that the IEC ( 61960 ? ) standard has been most commonly used on CPF these days, for lithium-ion secondary cells anyway, and that nomenclature is typically in the form of ...

    (negative) (positive) (shape) (diameter) (length)

    This certainly has obvious limitations, as the chemistries have become more complex.
    Last edited by archimedes; 09-25-2020 at 12:07 PM.
    ... is the archimedes peak

  10. #10

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    All the acronyms can be defined with a little googling, do your own and post back here as a contribution

  11. #11

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Quote Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
    I believe in discussions, best to just use the canonical chemistry names

    NMC LMO LCO NCA etc

    and forget the INR IMR etc

    since they are at best redundant.
    Unfortunately, the popular convention is already established, which is to use the abbreviations used on cells, ICR, IMR, INR, & LFP (or IFR), or the shorthand chemical formulas, respectively, LiCo, LiMn, LiNiMn (or LiNiMnCo), & LiFEPO4.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    My point is that these labels - ICR, IMR, INR are not reliable indicators of the model's chemistry, and do not add any meaning, by definition they are redundant.

    These have a specific meaning:

    LFP, LiFe, LiFEPO4

    LCO, LiCo, LiCoO2

    LMO, LiMn2O4

    NMC, LiNiMnCoO2

    NCA, LiNiCoAlO2

    NCO, LiNiCoO2

    and dozens more.

    These labels are precise, objective and scientific.

    Of course, everyone is free to do as they like, but

    just because some are willing to go along with corporate obfuscation does not mean that should be accepted as any kind of "standard".


    All that said, I think it is not a very productive line of inquiry, not the most important factor for an end user trying to choose a good battery.

    A much better strategy is to find the objective test results for the model cells you are considering, energy capacity, sustainable C-rates continuous vs peak taking heat rise into account, very strongly correlated to ESIR

    and cycle lifespan given the use case and degree of "coddling" wrt the various inter-related causal factors.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    If you say so, but personally, I have never seen cells labeled ICR, IMR, INR or IFR that were anything but LiCo, LiMn, LiNiMn, and LiFePO4 respectively. Except maybe one major label... KeepPower's IMR labeled cells I saw HKJ note they were hybrids, but that doesn't mean that they are not also LiMn. Also, once a convention is established, it is difficult to impossible to dislodge it. But I wish you luck on your campaign.
    Last edited by night.hoodie; 09-25-2020 at 08:35 PM.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Quote Originally Posted by Cemoi View Post
    Thanks everybody for your replies.
    Could you please decode the other acronyms:
    • ICR
    • IFR
    • IMR
    • INR
    • NMC
    • NCA

    Yes HKJ's advice will be welcome.
    In the meantime, I see from his estimated capacity tables that there are huge differences in the Voltage <--> SoC relation, between different chemistries.
    Up to now, in order to take care of my Li-ion batteries (only 10180 for now) I used these open circuit values from LuxLuthor's post:
    4.2V Full 100%
    4.1V About 90%
    4.0V About 80%
    3.9V About 60%
    3.8V About 40%
    3.7V About 20%
    3.6V Empty
    <3.5V Overdischarged
    <3.0V Cell damage occurs


    But HKJ's tables show the reality may be very different: 40% SoC (best value for long term storage according to batteryuniversity) is 3.8V for some, 3.6V for others.


    Is eu.nkon.nl one of these?

    HKJ has an article on this

    https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryLowVoltage%20UK.html

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Update on Lithium chemistries

    Quote Originally Posted by night.hoodie View Post
    If you say so, but personally, I have never seen cells labeled ICR, IMR, INR or IFR that were anything but LiCo, LiMn, LiNiMn, and LiFePO4 respectively. Except maybe one major label... KeepPower's IMR labeled cells I saw HKJ note they were hybrids, but that doesn't mean that they are not also LiMn. Also, once a convention is established, it is difficult to impossible to dislodge it. But I wish you luck on your campaign.
    The only way to know what the cells are made of, it to read the material data sheet. Not all companies provide it on-line, but you can find it for some. The first thing you'll notice is that all modern cells are hybrid chemistries. It doesn't matter whether they use ICR, IMR, or INR in the product name, they all use cobalt, nickel, and manganese.

    So, don't go by the product name. That said, many companies will use the INR vs ICR to give an idea of whether the cell is designed for high performance or high capacity.

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