SN rated oil and the problems it can cause

Most oils through the 70s on into the 90s would protect an engine just fine even though some would sludge up more than others and you could even run a decent performance cam using that oil with no worries. The SJ rating was the last good oil. Government got involved (epa) and told the car manufacturers that they had to warrant the catalytic converters for x amount of miles. The manufacturers in turn told the oil companies to "reduce" the zddp levels in their oils so the cats could last longer.
Now zddp is the last line of defense against bare metal to metal contact. After that cams started to wear out quickly and new cams wiped out easily and performance cams even the more so. It isn't just with the cams--it's also with the lifters. Cams don't get pressurized lubrication, they get splash lubrication. A camshaft will get oil when the pressurized system fails and will survive as long as the oil has enough of the good stuff in it. I've read where it doesn't matter on old non performance engines that are broke in--yes it does as I found out on my 250 6cyl in a 1971 chevy c10 with less than 68,000 on it.
Now let me say first that modern vehicles have been built to withstand this by using roller cams and maybe other lower friction alterations, but as it stands the catalytic converters come first nowadays and then proper lubrication. The zddp needed to make oil a quality lubricant also kills the cats (at least at an earlier rate) and when they are stopped up it can also blow a head gasket as a secondary effect. The newer cats are made cheaper and stop up easier.
You know, maybe if you baby an old vehicle you could get by, but who wants to do 50mph in a 70mph zone? I did and it's tough when you have a lead foot. This present job though is a morning job and it was tough to get there on time after working afternoon and evening shifts straight for almost 5 years, so I gave it some gas--lots of gas sometimes in the mornings (not always) and did the babying on the way home. Now a Ford will give you an oil bath if you adjust the valves, but this chevy in a non chevy way did twice that even slinging oil slap dab over the driver's side fender, so I knew it was lubricating very well and the oil that was rated for high flow was doing just that. One day I developed an intermediate tick that would go away and come back every now and then and then one day it never left. I immediately changed oil and filter at my jobsite and then adjusted the valves after work--didn't help. I later took the lifters out and took them apart and cleaned them. One lifter was wore bad on the bottom and the cam lobe was scoured. I replaced that one but had a shortage of lifters because my brother in law ruined one of them while taking it out. We had to use an old lifter out of a 292 that was sitting around. I went back to using 15w-40 diesel oil instead of the 10w-30 name brand oil I previously had in it and a quality filter. It still ticked and started missing on a cylinder. A week later I tore it down again and there was no wear at all (oil did its job), but I replaced that substitute lifter with a new one and carefully adjusted the valves without the engine running as before and I also put in a bottle of zddp additive. Let me also say that both times I used a good pre assembly lube liberally.
Well I cranked the engine and it sounded dry and awful, but I remembered the cam break in process I have read of where you get the engine up to 2500 rpm and rev it up to 3500 and back and forth for 20 mins. It was running smooth as silk in under 5 mins and has been ever since. I also had it about a quart over for better splash lube as recommended (2 over is recommended really).
All this happened over a period of 3 weeks and it really had me stressed. I could picture myself comming to work on a tricycle and running into something like that dude on "laugh in". --that made me laugh and also helped me get through this time.
What are your thoughts on these modern oils? Did your jelopy also give you fits that made you have thoughts of abandoning it on the side of the road with a "more power to em" attitude to whoever got it?
This is my SN rated oil rant-- y'all got one? I want people to know about this and there are additives out there to put the good stuff back in oils and there are speciality oils out there that already has it in there, but don't expect to find them on the shelf at walmart too easy. They took it out of the diesel oils also, but they do have a turbo rating compaired to the starbust oils.
Oh, I forgot-- problem was my lifter gummed up in its bore and lifters will wear out quick if they don't freely spin in their bore.

Given that my most recent oil sample I sent in was AFTER your SJ designation, the lab report came back with zinc in it, my wear metals in 3 different vehicles are basically zero, and I routinely get in excess of 300k w/o engine issues... I seriously question your base assumption.

Sorry.

My '67 Cougar with a 289 had a bearing knock at 89,000 miles. I wasn't the original owner, so I know nothing about its previous maintenance.

My '98 windstar (bought new) with 139,000 miles had low oil pressure, and I used 10-30 in it, it's whole life, every 5,000 miles.

My '99 Crown Victoria (bought new) got totaled at 260,000 miles. Started to smoke a little at start up for a few seconds. 10-40 the first half of its life, 5-20 synthetic blend the rest of its life. I didn't know better. The engine actually calls for 5-20.

My 2008 Grand Marquis (my Dad bought it new) dealer serviced for its first 50,000 miles, then it went to my brother who put on 150,000 miles, using 5-20 cheapest synthetic he could find and changing it when he got around to it. I put about another 60,000 on it, and use 5-20 synthetic blend about every 6,000 miles. It's about 1/2 quart low @ 6,000 miles.

I remember that my dad's '71 Mercury Montego with a 302 in her, (he bought it new) would be a quart low after about 3,000 miles, using 10/30 or 10/40.

How the miles are put on can make a HUGE difference. The Windstar was predominately city miles. Where there is a traffic light on every city corner.
The crown vic was a blend of city and highway about 50/50.

The Grand Marquis probably 175,000 of the 260,000 are highway miles.

So to answer your question, what do I think about today's modern oils? I think that they are fantastic!
Or maybe it is today's engines.

My mechanic says that my Ford 4.6L engine is a 400,000 mile engine.

I'm not sure when manufacturers made their engines to have less friction on the cams, but by 1995 almost all(if not all)pushrod engines had roller cams which can handle the weaker oils quite well. I'm mostly talking about pre 90s engines. Old fords seem to handle this better, but I'm not taking a chance on my F150. Hello to you Poppy. :wave:

Turbodog, If I left the impression that they took all the zink and phosphorus (zddp) out of the oils I apologize. Modern oils still have it in there, but at lower amounts--sometimes as half as much and at 600 something ppm it doesn't protect older engines which need at least 1200 ppm or more, but too much could cause problems. If your engine was manufactured in the 90s--especially after 95 it doesn't qualify for worry and you should get 200,000+ miles of worry free driving from the engine itself if you change the oil and filter regular. I change mine around 3000, but used to do 1000-2000 mile changes. It helps to sniff the oil for good luck before pouring it in. :laughing:
I don't think overhead cam engines are affected and I'm unfamiliar with the old VW beetle engines, but it affected them also.
I also want too add that my chevy is an old farm truck that is geared very low and at 50 it is turning some rpms--just think what it doing at 90? I haven't had it that fast since I've fixed it, but I have had it a little over 80. Yesterday the night guard didn't unlock the front gate and there were people there waiting. I took off hard when I realized it and on down a half mile (big place) where the other guard was (asleep) I took that 90 degree turn burning rubber--went on up and got the keys from him and then took off spinning on back to open the gate. I must have scared him because he called off that night.
I felt guilty for being that rough and my tire threads look almost new after being on 5 years, but I don't want my company to lose that contract because of a lack of quality guards.
By the way, didn't hurt the truck and the oil is still doing its job. At another 1000 miles I will probably change it.

I had a 91 Honda Prelude with the engine that ate piston rings. The fabled B21 had the same stuff used on Porsche piston walls that is very durable for high rev engines. Now remember the word Prelude can mean "things to come" and that is why Mr Honda called it that. It was not an R&D car per sae, but it was the model that tried out a lot of new ideas. Many of which are in use today. Certain plastics, metals, cloths and engineering ideas first went into the Prelude, often times with an alternative idea in the Acura Integra. Mr Honda died in 91 after retiring a few years earlier so we know he wasn't the one who picked the alloy used for piston rings versus the hardended cylinder walls. Enter the new grades of motor oils and the situation got worse since zinc would at least leave a thin coat along parts thus reducing the damage done to piston rings by those hardened piston walls.

Usually by 60k miles the B21 was capoot. Not like a Vega mind you but it consumed a lot of oil by then. Especially the ones with a stick shift where folks changed gears at 4-5k rpms. The motors coupled to auto trannies tended to live longer due to the auto tranny shifting at 2500-3500 rpm's. I bought an auto version with 225k on the odometer. It had a chronic "battery" light issue the owner could not solve. Funny thing is the clip to the alternator had a cover that had a weird shaped ear flap and if you did not fasten it proper you got the red light. I fixed that on day one but by month one the thing was falling apart as fast as I could fix it. But it did not smoke. I asked the former owner what motor oil he used and he said "eh, just any old oil but the trick is to give a few sips of zinc every once in a while. He handed me 2 bottles of STP oil treatment and told me not to use a whole bottle at once because that will lead to a clogged cat convertor. So I'd add a few teaspoons each time I got gas but would dump in a bottle right before an oil change. Pour in the magic sauce, let the engine run 10 minutes or so then dump the oil out.

I gave it to my son to sell in order to fund a project we embarked on that year. It had 275k on the odometer and did not smoke at all.

High mileage oils like Valvoline Max Life had molybdenum in it at one point. I do not know if it still does but that stuff is a great parts coater.

On my motorcycle I changed my oil every 1000 miles used walmart sytnenic .I did it my self so it did not cost a lot

Hey, bykfixer. :wave: I think moly is an excellent pre engine assembly lube and great additive in the oils. Some have more than others. I don't know if it can replace zddp or not, but we should see soon because car manufacturers are calling for a new classification of oil with more antiwear protection and it makes me wonder what they are going to add to the oil to make it have better antiwear properties.
STP used to have a lot of zddp in it--especially the 4cyl formula, but they have now been reduced also.

Hey reggie33. :wave: The supertech seems to have real good reviews for a modern oil, but I found out PYB is way tackier. There are some specialty oils out there just for motorcycles--I think valvoline for motorcycles used to still have around 1200 ppm. Honda has a good oil also.
I don't know much about synthetics because I prefer dino oils myself, but brad penn (semi synthetic), now penngrade was good, but expensive and I had to drive to fultondale (good ways) to get a case. Now I can get it in hueytown if I want it.
Supertech is made mainly by warren performance products I think and smells like havoline used to. :thinking:

Opps I recalled wrong I used the walmart oil in my chinease scooter on the motorcycle I used mobile one

Mobile one makes a 15w-50 racing oil I think that has good levels of zddp. I have used it with no issues once in my wife's car.

+

The dedicated Oil Forum (whatever it's called) is the most ridiculous thing in the history of man.
There are tens of thousands of posts comparing/bickering synthetic to conventional oil.

I take 15w40 syn blend & combine it w/ 5w40 full syn, in equal parts, as to get rid of my 15w40.
Been using it for years in motorbikes.

If I was to say that in the 'Oil Forum' there would be people that would loose their mind, to a degree they would need to be institutionalized.

Hey orbital:wave:, no argument here my friend. Just an information thread and thanks for sharing.

Cmon y'all- please share what works for you in your "older" pre 90s vehicles. The older the better, but no model A fords because they could run on any ol oil because of Henry Ford's brilliant metallurgy. What I consider old is what was new when I was a kid or older than that. My wife has a 1997 toyota avalon and I consider that as one of those new fangled contraptions.
Bykfixer, I forgot. I put a bottle of STP high mileage oil treatment in my truck to get it home from the parts store before I tore it down the first time. It made internal parts more slick than the delo 15w-40 with a whole bottle of lucas zddp additive which made the delo over 5000 ppm.

I feel weird being the main one posting on here, but I don't get all my thoughts at once.
On new flat tappet camshafts the metal isn't as good as it used to be- it's softer. Crane used to supply all the cam cores (pre ground) to auto manufacturers and other cam companies. Crane's quality has gone downhill the same as several others and people are having trouble with aftermarket lifters also. I don't know what's good, but I've had no issues with napa sealed power and also melling lifters as of yet, although some others on forums had issues with sealed power. The rules have changed for breaking in cams and lifters and the oil really needs to be better than ever when it comes to aftermarket parts. Cams and lifters are the highest pressure parts in an engine and if you go with performance cams with more aggressive grinds and use higher spring pressure you need better lubrication than what these stock oils can give-- synthetic or dino.
In all fairness to my brother in law, if he didn't crush the top of that slick but stuck lifter with a pair of vice grips who knows, maybe I would have (ol stubborn part). He's a good mechanic and I'm proud of him-- I should be because I taught him initially. He has now done surpassed me and I feel dumb around him sometimes.

Dawg, I just made a new discovery. I've been mixing oil in my gas and I recently realized that that is a very good thing since I figured out my truck was supposed to run on regular leaded gas. I've used marvel mystery oil, 2 stroke oil and now a cheaper walmart super tech 15-40 diesel oil.
I've been using 15-40 chevron delo as my motor oil and it has been doing well, but while putting the super tech in my gas I've discovered it is tackier. I got a notion and checked- the super tech meets the pickier ford specs for antiwear and delo doesn't. Mobile delvac doesn't. Only shell's rotella t and supertech do of the most popular and ready available diesel oils. I don't know if I'll change brands or not though because I add the Lucas zddp additive anyway. I like my zddp levels to be slightly above the 1100-1200 baseline minimum for antiwear protection that common car oils can't give and now with the CK-4 rating, most diesel oils like delo and delvac. I wonder how shell and supertech got around that because they also have a CK-4 rating, but ARE higher in zppd- especially rotella according to oil analysis. By the way, the Lucas treatment says zink, but it has the zddp in it which is both zink and phosporus with the latter being the most inportant.