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Thread: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

  1. #1

    Default LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Got my GT94 in the mail today so I took it out and took some quick beam shots of it compared to some of my other lights. In the line up are the Acebeam W30, Thrunite TC20, Thrunite TN40, Tractor Supply 35 watt HID, Firefoxes FF4S, and the GT94 of course. Yes the GT94 is much bigger than the FF4 but the fact that it is so much brighter than one of the brightest HID flashlights out there seems to indicate that LEDs have finally closed the performance gap with HID. Also the GT94 can maintain turbo till the batteries are dead. I don't know of any HID flashlights of any size( and there are some big ones out there) that even comes close to the overall performance of the GT94. It was independently measured at ~20,000 lumens and ~1.5mcd. The pics speak for themselves. Distance to the trees is about ~440ft.


    TC20
    DSC_4977 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    W30
    DSC_4976 by Imagio X1, on Flickr
    Tractor Supply 35 watt HID
    DSC_4981 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    FireFoxes FF4S (40 watt mode)
    DSC_4982 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    FireFoxes FF4S (65watt mode)
    DSC_4995 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    TN40
    DSC_4979 by Imagio X1, on Flickr
    GT94 on turbo
    DSC_4983 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    W30 zoomed in
    DSC_4987 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    GT94 zoomed in
    DSC_4989 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    GT94 and W30
    DSC_4992 by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    GT94 and TN40
    DSC_4994 by Imagio X1, on Flickr
    Last edited by Magio; 10-16-2020 at 09:41 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    >Got my GT94
    Who makes that?

    Are all of your example LEP type lights?

    When you say "zoomed in" you mean - adjusted for maximum throw? That would be zoomed OUT.

    I don't understand why the W30 "zoomed in" has a very bright flood AND a narrow but very bright hotspot.
    In contrast to the first W30 image, with a less-bright flood and NO hotspot.
    Last edited by lumen aeternum; 10-22-2020 at 06:09 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    GT94 is Lumintop. I got mine a few days ago.

    GT94 is four (4) SBT90.2.

    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-NOW-AVAILABLE!

    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...attached-pics-)
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  4. #4

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumen aeternum View Post
    >Got my GT94
    Who makes that?
    Its manufactured by Lumintop but its commonly known as the BLF GT94 as it was a community developed light from the other popular flashlight forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumen aeternum View Post
    Are all of your example LEP type lights?
    No, only the W30 is an LEP light. The GT94,TC20, and TN40 are LED lights. The Firefoxes FF4 and the Tractor Supply lights are HIDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumen aeternum View Post
    When you say "zoomed in" you mean - adjusted for maximum throw? That would be zoomed OUT.

    I don't understand why the W30 "zoomed in" has a very bright flood AND a narrow but very bright hotspot.
    In contrast to the first W30 image, with a less-bright flood and NO hotspot.
    "Zoomed in" as in I zoomed in with my camera on the hotspot. The first images were at the wide angle end of the zoom range (24mm full frame) while the zoomed images were at the telephoto end of the zoom range(70mm full frame).

    The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.
    Last edited by Magio; 10-22-2020 at 09:52 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.
    Does it have active cooling of some kind ? Heat sinking alone can't do it, not even massive heatsinks.
    If it was submerged in water the heatsink fins alone MIGHT be adequate.
    Most of the active cooling you see on units are a joke and an afterthought.
    How do you know it is not dimming after a few minutes ?
    How do you know the LED's are not getting overly hot "overheating" ?
    The death of LED's is excessive heat.
    Last edited by XeRay; 10-23-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View Post
    Does it have active cooling of some kind ? Heat sinking alone can't do it, not even massive heatsinks.
    If it was submerged in water the heatsink fins alone MIGHT be adequate.
    Most of the active cooling you see on units are a joke and an afterthought.
    How do you know it is not dimming after a few minutes ?
    How do you know the LED's are not getting overly hot "overheating" ?
    The death of LED's is excessive heat.
    I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.
    125C = 257F that's well above the boiling point of water at sea level, 100 C is 212 F the boiling point of water. For good life anything above 80C is not desirable, 60 to 80C maximum is much preferred. That's the temperatures at the LED's junction you won't see that externally on the heat sink fins, it will be lower. If its 100C on the fins the LED's are getting far too hot, maybe even 125C or more.
    Sounds like this light will burn your hands on the fins after 10 minutes or even less.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Gotta agree here, that LED is impressive, but impractical compared to an HID spotlight.

  9. #9

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Here we go again. lol!

    I'm starting to think it should be standard practice to define what one means by "surpassed" when making a comparison between LED and HID, and that everyone commenting stick to within that definition.

    Having said that. I love the pics! Especially when comparing the W30 to the GT94.
    Last edited by badtziscool; 10-23-2020 at 01:22 PM.
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Yes, Thank you for the beamshots!
    "Welcome to the edge. It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

  11. #11

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    I think we have a few technologies that compete well with h.i.d.
    1. L.e.p. (laser excited phosphor)- a mile of throw but only about 500 lumens
    2. Luminous SBT-90 Gen2 l.e.d.- a mile of throw and over 5,000 lumens
    3. L.e.p. (light emitting plasma)- 10s of thousands of lumens, bulb the size of a grain of rice (lots of potential for throw), no issues with heat (requires a lot of power though)
    I think where h.i.d. still excels is sustained high brightness for an extended runtime.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    I need to make a small correction. I said indefinitely when I should have stated till the batteries are dead. On turbo the batteries are dead in about 15 to 20mins. On the other forum there are guys who tested it and the light reached a maximum temp of 100c before the batteries were depleted. All the internals are rated for 125c and can sustain higher temps for short periods of time. The light is passively cooled and has no fan. It weighs about 8lbs with batteries. The passive cooling is so good in this light that the bigger issue is the battery temperature. The batteries will nearly reach their temperature limit after an extended run on turbo so that's something to be aware of while running the light on turbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View Post
    125C = 257F that's well above the boiling point of water at sea level, 100 C is 212 F the boiling point of water. For good life anything above 80C is not desirable, 60 to 80C maximum is much preferred. That's the temperatures at the LED's junction you won't see that externally on the heat sink fins, it will be lower. If its 100C on the fins the LED's are getting far too hot, maybe even 125C or more.
    Sounds like this light will burn your hands on the fins after 10 minutes or even less.
    I guess my comments brought us back to reality somewhat.
    Each technology has its place.
    Dogmatic black and white statements made earlier in this and past threads on this subject simply don't "cut it".
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (except in politics and religion ), but we all know the saying that "opinions are like ********, everyone has one.
    Last edited by XeRay; 10-26-2020 at 11:05 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View Post
    I guess my comments brought us back to reality somewhat.
    Each technology has its place.
    Dogmatic black and white statements made earlier in this and past threads on this subject simply don't "cut it".
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (except in politics and religion ), but we all know the saying that "opinions are like ********, everyone has one.
    Lol not at all. I still stick by my comments and I was going to do a run time test on the light in high mode (not turbo) to prove that even at a level where the light stays relatively cool and runs for quite a while it still has more lumens and intensity than either of the HID lights. But during the process one of my batteries failed so it threw off the results. Gonna retry when I sort out the battery situation and post the results.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    Lol not at all. I still stick by my comments and I was going to do a run time test on the light in high mode (not turbo) to prove that even at a level where the light stays relatively cool and runs for quite a while it still has more lumens and intensity than either of the HID lights. But during the process one of my batteries failed so it threw off the results. Gonna retry when I sort out the battery situation and post the results.
    I'm not gonna hold my breath, without VERY WELL engineered active cooling . . .
    Must be up in the realm of 100 watts power draw, maybe higher.
    Last edited by XeRay; 10-26-2020 at 04:55 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    bump for later
    Last edited by lumen aeternum; Yesterday at 07:41 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    The whole point of my post was to say that there is now an LED light on the market for a comparably cheap price, when compared with the highest performing HID lights, that has substantially more lumens and equal or longer range that can run indefinitely without overheating. There is no HID flashlight that even comes close to my knowledge. Durability wise maybe those very expensive HID lights still have an advantage,I dont know, but performance wise there is no comparison.
    But both technologies cost many hundreds of $$$ ? Are all HID lights in that price range?

  17. #17

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked on Fenix View Post
    I think we have a few technologies that compete well with h.i.d.
    1. L.e.p. (laser excited phosphor)- a mile of throw but only about 500 lumens
    2. Luminous SBT-90 Gen2 l.e.d.- a mile of throw and over 5,000 lumens
    3. L.e.p. (light emitting plasma)- 10s of thousands of lumens, bulb the size of a grain of rice (lots of potential for throw), no issues with heat (requires a lot of power though)
    I think where h.i.d. still excels is sustained high brightness for an extended runtime.

    Its unfortunate that two different technologies seem to share the same LEP acronym.
    Can you give me an example of a plasma flashlight?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumen aeternum View Post
    Its unfortunate that two different technologies seem to share the same LEP acronym.
    Can you give me an example of a plasma flashlight?

    I don't believe there is one. If there were, it would be at least a few thousand dollars.
    This technology has been around for at least 10-15 years but hasn't been implemented much at all.
    We looked into it back 10 or 15 years ago and concluded it wasn't very practical for any of our applications at that time.
    Last edited by XeRay; Yesterday at 08:58 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View Post
    I'm not gonna hold my breath, without VERY WELL engineered active cooling . . .
    Must be up in the realm of 100 watts power draw, maybe higher.
    Well I've proved my point.

    I did a ceiling bounce test in my bathroom of several of my lights. Now I realize that ceiling bounce test are not the most accurate way to measure lumens at all, but I do think its a way to get a quick idea of how the lights stack up. I covered each light with a piece of white copy paper to prevent hotspots from skewing the results. And these are the numbers.

    Thrunite TN32 - 27 lux
    Thrunite TC20 - 38 lux
    Tractor Supply Hid - 42 lux
    Dual 100watt halogen spotlight - 66 lux
    Thrunite TN40 - 68 lux
    Firefoxes FF4S 65 watt HID - 82 lux
    BLF GT94 Turbo - 364 lux
    BLF GT94 High @ 10min 158 lux
    BLF GT94 High @ 15min 142 lux

    And the temperature. I ran the light on high to show that turbo is not even necessary for it to beat HID and its quite able to maintain its brightness without overheating. And this is a passively cooled light.

    @ ~5min. 2mins on turbo before switching to high
    A0076_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    @ ~10min
    A0077_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    @ ~15 min
    A0078_FR by Imagio X1, on Flickr

    So after 15 mins on high in a room with the ambient temp at 75F the light was still ~173% brighter than the FF4 is at 65watts, and I was still able to reach down and pick the light up and carry it by the battery tube. Admittedly it was a starting to get a little uncomfortable after a few minutes of holding it but the light is meant to be carried by the carry handle which was still rather cool. Also you can see that the hottest part of the head is only 165F which is well within its temperature limits.
    Last edited by Magio; Today at 07:51 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by badtziscool View Post
    Here we go again. lol!

    I'm starting to think it should be standard practice to define what one means by "surpassed" when making a comparison between LED and HID, and that everyone commenting stick to within that definition.
    Haha I like a good debate.

    So when I say beat I'm meaning 3 things. A combination of intensity, lumens, and sustainability, and we can also throw in price. I don't think there is any hand held HID flashlight available that offers a better combination of intensity, and light output, that can maintain it for a significant amount of time, and especially not at this price point. I will certainly concede that the higher priced HID lights are almost certainly more reliable and durable, however that is not to say that this light is not reliable or fragile.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    Also you can see that the hottest part of the head is only 165F which is well within its temperature limits.
    Haha I like a good debate.
    This temperature actually means very little, The "head temperature limits" are the melting point of aluminum , Its the temperature of the LED's themselves, the Junction temperature that matters a VERY LOT. You need a very large "Delta T" between the heat sink fins and the LED's themselves (As well as a very good mechanical (physical) connection for thermal transfer) in order to have very efficient thermal transfer to pull the heat out of the LED's . Once the heat sink warms up you no longer have that "Delts T". With the heat sink fins at 165 degrees you can be assure the LED's are likely above or at least close to 100C (212 F). That's well above whats good for LED's or any circuitry for that matter for long dependable life. This is why on computer CPU's the heat sink mechanism has been directly attached to the top of the CPU and then a fan as well.
    There is no way to get the heatsink directly onto the back of the LED's, they are mounted on a PCB (plastic) etc.
    How many watts are being drawn from the battery in this situation ? All those watts that end up as heat must go somewhere, much of it is being trapped inside.

    As "someone" politically famous (unnamed here) a few months ago said, "it was just a debate (while laughing)" when confronted in a video recorded interview for extreme inconsistencies of opinion and position (implying that misleading comments are normal and to be expected in a debate). ie Political "Flip - Flops" positional lies are normal.
    Fortunately this debate isn't Political in the traditional sense, but is seems to have gone well beyond the scientific facts of high powered LED flashlight thermal management design. You simply can't ignore the Physics of thermal energy (heat) transfer. Ambient airflow (natural convection) and radiated IR just cant cut it, submerged in water would likely do the job or possibly cool or cold strong winds.
    Last edited by XeRay; Today at 04:38 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    The MCPCB is not plastic. It's 88mm by 3mm copper and weighs about a 1/3 of a pound. The LEDs maximum junction temp is 150c or 302f. I doubt those LED are getting that hot.
    Last edited by Magio; Today at 11:28 AM.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    If it were "copper" the entire PCB would be a giant short. It is backed and bonded to a copper "plate" of your indicated 3mm, the plastic PCB is a thermal and electrical insulator, with the pads to mount (solder) the LED's not connected thermally directly to the copper plate.
    You better get it straight if you are gonna argue with me. I have been in LED applications development (Aviation) for 8+ years.
    You are crazy if you think 150C is okay for any Diode. Maximum PCB temperature for any electronics application is about 120C, that's not considering the maximums for individual devices mounted thereon or their longevity.
    Whats the Tg (glass transition temp.) of the PCB ? should always operate at leas 25C below the Tg rating.
    Last edited by XeRay; Today at 03:38 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay View Post
    If it were "copper" the entire PCB would be a giant short. It is backed and bonded to a copper "plate" of your indicated 3mm, the plastic PCB is a thermal and electrical insulator, with the pads to mount (solder) the LED's nt connected thermally to the copper plate.
    You better get it straight if you are gonna argue with me. I have been in LED applications development (Aviation) for 8+ years.
    You are crazy if you think 150C is okay for any Diode. Maximum PCB temperature for any electronics application is about 120C, that's not considering the maximums for individual devices mounted thereon or their longevity.
    Whats the Tg (glass transition temp.) of the PCB ? should always operate at leas 25C below the Tg rating.
    Yes this is appropriately called a copper dtp mcpcb. Trying to find something wrong with the light by calling it plastic is just silly. I think there is enough information here for others to make their own judgements.
    Last edited by Magio; Today at 11:59 AM.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: BLF GT94 vs HID. LED has finallly surpassed HID in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    I think there is enough information here for others to make their own judgements.
    Trying to find something wrong with the light by calling it plastic is just silly.
    On that statement I believe we can all agree that intelligent conclusions can be made, from these complete 25 informational posts.

    Every PCB made in the world is made of some type of insulating fiber reinforced plastic, that's not a criticism, just a fact, HID is the same.
    Last edited by XeRay; Today at 04:19 PM.

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