ID and replace this bulb with LED, please

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
Backstory:
I own a Genuine Scooter Co. Buddy scooter; I've posted about it before, you can see a photo on their website. As built, the scooter has turn signals mounted in the front fascia. However, for the US market, these turn signals are mounted too closely together (or too close to the vehicle centerline) to meet the legal requirements for US turn signals. To resolve this, the manufacturer added turn signals to the handlebars, further outboard.

As delivered in the US, the fascia-mounted turn signals are disconnected. There is a common modification within the Buddy community to reconnect these after rewiring them as ignition-switched (running or conspicuity) lights. This is what I've done.

HOWEVER, the charging system of the scooter can not supply enough amperage to run incandescent bulbs full-time, as they are 21 watts each. They must be replaced with LED "bulbs".

The manual only describes the bulbs as 12V, 21W. Not very helpful. I can tell you the bulb has a single base contact and a 15mm base diameter. I think that makes it a Ba15s base. The globe is roughly spherical amber glass, approximately 20mm in diameter. I think I would prefer a "whitish" replacement - the lenses are a slightly smoked clear.

So I need LED "bulb" suggestions, please. Or, if this qualifies as an illegal modification, please tell me so and I will cease the project. Thank you!
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
I don't see a problem answering this question, but it really can't be answered usefully without pictures. We need to see several close-up views of the bulb (one thing we need to see is the configuration of its base index pins), and we need to see a close-up view of the lamp it's going in. Just an exterior (lens) view would be fine, at least for a start.

The actual bulb and actual lamp on your actual scooter --- not just a pic you found on the web somewhere.
 

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
I don't see a problem answering this question, but it really can't be answered usefully without pictures. We need to see several close-up views of the bulb (one thing we need to see is the configuration of its base index pins), and we need to see a close-up view of the lamp it's going in. Just an exterior (lens) view would be fine, at least for a start.

The actual bulb and actual lamp on your actual scooter --- not just a pic you found on the web somewhere.

Been a minute since I posted photos here, bear with me... This should be two photos of the bulb...



 
Last edited:

kingofwylietx

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
446
Location
DFW, TX
It's possible they will want to know if those pins are the same distance from the end of the bulb. I seem to recall some bulbs having pins at the same height while others were offset.
 

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
It's possible they will want to know if those pins are the same distance from the end of the bulb. I seem to recall some bulbs having pins at the same height while others were offset.


Sorry for the oversight. Yes, the pins are the same depth from the base, i.e. the bulb could be inserted both ways, 180 degrees apart.
 

lightfooted

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
1,017
Sorry for the oversight. Yes, the pins are the same depth from the base, i.e. the bulb could be inserted both ways, 180 degrees apart.

From your description and the photo it seems to be a standard 1156 automotive lamp but slightly lower powered. The automotive 1156 is rated at 26W or there abouts. I would suggest trying a pair of Sylvania 7506 lights, which are intended as LED replacements for things like back-up lamps and marker lights. The packaging gives a 2.3W rating at 12.8V. I found them at my local auto parts chain store. Oh and yes, they are cool white LEDs.
 
Last edited:

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
No, it's definitely not an 1156 (which is rated at 27w, no thereabouts involved), nor a P21W; those both have much bigger glass globes and the filament is located differently -- which matters, because that lamp's reflector is calculated based on a filament at a particular position. You could install a P21W or 1156 bulb; the base would fit, but the filament would be in the wrong place for the lamp's optics to do anything with it, and the plastic reflector would probably perish if the wires lasted long enough before burning out.

From looking at the filament and the glass globe, it's a little difficult to believe this is a 21-watt bulb. From looking at the E-mark on the lens, it gets that much harder to believe this is a 21-watt bulb, because E-marked lamps with replaceable light sources have to use E-marked bulbs, which are catalogued in UN Regulation 37, and there is no 21-watt bulb (or anything approximate) with that base and that globe size/filament location. Bulbs sized and shaped like this, with the BA15s base, include the R5W and the R10W, but those have clear glass. There is an RY10W, which is amber, but it has a BAU15s base (one index pin is clocked 150° away from the other one instead of 180° across).

Looking closer at the pic of the lens (thanks for posting the link to the large, high-resolution photo, this really helps!) we see a lens marking: "12V R10W". So the original bulb in this location is not a 21w item, it is an R10W, and these lenses are probably aftermarket copies of lenses that were originally amber, and the amber bulbs are an unapproved aftermarket item (which explains the lack of an E-mark or any other marking on the bulb base or glass).

The other markings on the lens tell us this is a Category 11 direction indicator, which checks out for the type of conveyance it fits. Looks like someone just made simple copies of the original lens in smoked-clear plastic instead of amber.

7506 is not an LED bulb, it's the Sylvania and Osram product code for a P21W bulb -- the regular, spec, filament type. I think what lightfooted was trying to point you at was these. They might or might not physically fit; they are much longer than the R10W (or that faking-it bulb you removed from the lamp and showed us here). If they physically fit, they might or might not work, optically, with the lamp's reflector optics -- because the LED bulb's light center length is very far away from that of the bulb these optics were designed to work with.

There aren't actually any LED R10W bulbs that I can think of, that would give much of a chance of working in this application. You could try toys like these (what have you got to lose, aside from nine bucks?) and see how long they last.

I wonder how your available-power calculations change when you use the correct, 10-watt figure for these bulbs rather than the incorrect 21-watt figure you were using before. Maybe all you need is a pair of these correct bulbs after all!
 
Last edited:

Alaric Darconville

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 2, 2001
Messages
5,377
Location
Stillwater, America
From your description and the photo it seems to be a standard 1156 automotive lamp but slightly lower powered. The automotive 1156 is rated at 26W or there abouts. I would suggest trying a pair of Sylvania 7506 lights, which are intended as LED replacements for things like back-up lamps and marker lights. The packaging gives a 2.3W rating at 12.8V. I found them at my local auto parts chain store. Oh and yes, they are cool white LEDs.

The 1156 may prevent installing the lens; the envelope is much larger than this R10W-shaped bulb. We know what the bulb should be, because that's on that lens marking. (This is why we often ask for what sounds like unimportant information.)

Any of those single-chip bulbs may have a super-obnoxious and glaring point of light; the outer lens does nothing to mitigate that. The "corn cob" type might work a little better but the best I'd hope for is that it doesn't render your turn signals inoperative by masking their signal, despite the distance between those lamps.

Maybe just stick with the correct bulb and be done.
 

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
Thanks for all the info. Further updates: You are correct about the Taiwan-market turn bulb being 10 watts. I pulled the bulb out of the added-for-the-US-market turn signal, and THAT is indeed a 21 watt bulb. And it's an Osram 7507. The rear turn bulb is an R10W.

From what the internet tells me, the stator output on this engine should be in the 80-90w range. Take away 35 watts for the HS1 headlight, and you're left with 45-55 watts. Operate 31 watts of turn signal, and there isn't much left to play with - forget about 62 watts of hazard flashers, because they're not used in "normal" operation.

If I keep the 10w bulbs in the Taiwan-market turn signals, I'm using 55 of ~90 available watts - and at idle, less than 90 watts. I don't think I'm comfortable with that. Sitting at idle at a traffic light with the turn signal engaged, and it's likely I'm discharging the battery.

I think I'll pick up some of the "toy" Ba15s bulbs with a smaller faux globe and if I hate them, I'll just disable the whole deal.

Thank you all for your insight and advice.
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
I pulled the bulb out of the added-for-the-US-market turn signal, and THAT is indeed a 21 watt bulb. And it's an Osram 7507.

That's a PY21W. It has the BAU15s base. Can you show us your US-market front turn signal in similar detail as you showed us the other lights? There may be some power savings possible.

If I keep the 10w bulbs in the Taiwan-market turn signals, I'm using 55 of ~90 available watts - and at idle, less than 90 watts. I don't think I'm comfortable with that. Sitting at idle at a traffic light with the turn signal engaged, and it's likely I'm discharging the battery.

I think you're worrying too much. 55 of 90 watts is using 61% of the charging system's capacity, why would you worry about that? And how long are you planning to sit at an idle with the turn signal operating? What's an extra-long light take to change, maybe three minutes? You're not going to run the battery down in three minutes, or five or ten.
 

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
Here is the lens of the US turn signal. Not sure if you can make out the text but it says R10W which makes no sense because an R10W won't fit in this socket!

 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
You say you found a PY21W (Osram 7507) in this turn signal? Interesting. The other bulb that would fit would be an RY10W, which looks like what it was designed and intended to use -- the US and UN ("ECE") performance requirements are effectively identical for this kind of turn signal, so there wouldn't be any cause to put a higher-power bulb in to meet US regs (and it looks like a real cram-job...not much if any clearance between the oversize bulb and the lens!).

The "R10W" lens marking isn't a big deal; bulb type markings are not required by either regulation, though they're sometimes put on as a courtesy -- only US headlamps are required to have their bulb type marked on the lens or anywhere else, and even that doesn't apply to motorcycles, scooters, and vehicles like that. So the odds are this lens, too, was originally made of amber plastic, and they used the same mold to make this smoked/clear one without bothering to change the bulb type marking, which didn't have to be there in the first place.

If you're concerned about excessive power draw (and want the turn signals to work the way they were designed and intended to work), grab some of the correct bulbs for them.
 

eggsalad

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
268
Well, I got everything wired up and slapped in some el cheapo eBay LED "bulbs", which ain't much, but they work as a proof-of-concept, and only draw 1.5w each. Would I trust my life to these? Heck no! But anything I can do to be more conspicuous to F-350 drivers can't be bad.

 
Top