I want a power tool Li-ion pack with removable cells!

lumen aeternum

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Someone needs to 3D print battery packs that have regular spring-loaded cell holders, so when one cell in your $100+ pack fails, you can fix it easily !

How do you take apart spot welded cells, anyway?
 

WalkIntoTheLight

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Manufacturers wouldn't allow it. Everything has to be idiot-proof. Imagine the dumbest person you know; that's who they have to design stuff for. Individual cells are simply too unsafe for morons. They'd short them, burn themselves, and then sue the company for a brain transplant. No major manufacturer is going to take that risk. You're stuck buying a new $100 proprietary pack from them.
 

john61ct

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The source of your problem is trying to use discarded scrap cells.

Start with top notch brand new cells, wired properly they will wear evenly.

When capacity is below 70-75% of what it was when new, discard/recycle them all as a set and replace.

Disassembling properly welded packs is hard work and does damage a fair proportion of cells.

There are no-weld solderless pack building solutions but they are bulkier and not cheap.
 

adamlau

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I have disassembled packs from DeWalt/Makita/Ryobi/Milwaukee/Bosch and more and wired up a harness to discharge the pack via an RC charger (beyond what using the tool could accomplish) in order to reduce the potential energy store before disassembly. The work is not difficult, but you must take precautions. This was a post I made around twelve years ago when I vented a cell during my first pack disassembly :) . I eventually refined my technique and used ceramic shears and insulated pliers with silicone sleeves to roll back the contact strips while cutting. Not a single vent across a dozen packs afterwards. You can always visit a local battery shop and have them replace the cells for a small fee.
 
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idleprocess

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Someone needs to 3D print battery packs that have regular spring-loaded cell holders, so when one cell in your $100+ pack fails, you can fix it easily !
In addition to the liabilities - operational and legal - associated with user-replaceable cells, I do not believe such solutions will reliably deliver the kinds of current that power tool packs can. Spot-welding the connections makes for a highly reliable connection with almost zero contact resistance.

How do you take apart spot welded cells, anyway?
As others have mentioned, it's effectively surgery and not without risk.
 

tripplec

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Milwaukie and Rigid have boards managing and balancing cells in their packs. It not just thrown together in series/parallel combos. High current is needed in heavier application for these tools.

Leave them alone
 

turbodog

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... wired up a harness to discharge the pack ...

Slightly off topic, but the safety angle makes me mention this anyway.

If you want to discard a single cell or an entire pack safely... put it in a container of cold water with some salt added. Will safely discharge everything while keeping temps low. We have a 5 gallon bucket just for this at the local RC facility.
 

WalkIntoTheLight

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Slightly off topic, but the safety angle makes me mention this anyway.

If you want to discard a single cell or an entire pack safely... put it in a container of cold water with some salt added. Will safely discharge everything while keeping temps low. We have a 5 gallon bucket just for this at the local RC facility.

Doesn't that just make it impossible to recycle?

Okay, to be fair, recyclers probably just throw most stuff out anyway. It's a feel-good policy.
 

john61ct

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No you **must** discharge to dead flat for safety before giving to a recycler

The materials get extracted for creating new cells if done properly, but you're right, still very much in infancy
 

DIWdiver

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It sounded to me like the OP wanted an after-market/DIY solution, so the MFR is out of the loop, and liability/safety issues are in the hands of the consumer, as they are with almost all DIY endeavors.

Keeping this in mind, I would say yes, that's a great idea, but since there are dozens, maybe hundreds of different battery packs either in production or at the point where they need to be re-celled, and the fraction of owners who would be not only able but inclined to print and assemble a new pack is pretty miniscule, it would be impractical to ask that there be, in general, printable designs for any given tool. While you might get lucky and stumble across the fanatic who was willing to spend the dozens or hundreds of hours required to design and perfect a particular pack, the likelihood of finding someone wanting to do your particular pack is pretty small.

I did re-cell a 14.4V NiMH pack years ago, and the process was so difficult that I decided that I would never do it again. Designing and printing a new pack to incorporate easily replaceable cells would be so far beyond that level of difficulty that it's hard to imagine anyone ever undertaking such a project without significant financial backing. While such a project could be crowd-funded, I doubt that you could raise much money to develop a printable battery pack for a (insert your mfr and model here).

This is all on top of the practical issues raised earlier in this thread. The resistance of coil springs makes them completely unusable in power tool applications. Leaf springs might work in less demanding applications, but still cannot even compare to welded tabs. Soldered or welded connections are the only practical means to pull 10A or more from a cell with minimal voltage loss.

I'm sure that some vape devices pull currents like this from cells without soldered or welded connections, and I'm sure I'll catch some flack from people who know about the specifics of these devices. We'll deal with that if it comes up.
 

john61ct

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Soldered or welded connections are the only practical means to pull 10A or more from a cell with minimal voltage loss
I completely disagree.

Sure if you define "practical" narrowly enough.

Alternatives just haven't been demonstrated yet for this particular use case.

I really do not see 3D printing as essential to a solution, other than prototyping.

But then I also would not value trying to duplicate the various form factors

nor care about the cordless tool use case specifically all that much.

But there are plenty of high C-rate solderless no-weld projects out there in the eBike / EV world

their implementation from a business / distribution POV have not been great

but the technology is there, and more and more options will emerge over the next few years.
 

turbodog

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I completely disagree.

Sure if you define "practical" narrowly enough.

Alternatives just haven't been demonstrated yet for this particular use case.

I really do not see 3D printing as essential to a solution, other than prototyping.

But then I also would not value trying to duplicate the various form factors

nor care about the cordless tool use case specifically all that much.

But there are plenty of high C-rate solderless no-weld projects out there in the eBike / EV world

their implementation from a business / distribution POV have not been great

but the technology is there, and more and more options will emerge over the next few years.

Aren't the ebikes using lipo flat cells that already have handy tabs built in?
 

turbodog

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Doesn't that just make it impossible to recycle?

Okay, to be fair, recyclers probably just throw most stuff out anyway. It's a feel-good policy.

Not that I know of. And yes, plastics are being trashed from the recycle waste stream, but lithium, nickel, etc found in batteries is very much in demand.
 

john61ct

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Aren't the ebikes using lipo flat cells that already have handy tabs built in?
No, the majority buy or build spot-welded packs assembled from cylindricals.

Some designs not so tight on space douse the flat "pouch cells".

The term LiPo is most often used for the multi-cell packs from the RC world, crazy high power density but most liable to go boom
 

turbodog

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Then my vote is that practical packs with user-swappable cells (likely 18650) are not going to happen. The high current needed heats the springs making contact with the cell ends and destroys their springiness, not to mention the damage to plastics from a red-hot spring.

I have seen flat braided heavy gauge wire going to cell terminals before, with a spring applying pressure. But this gets back to "practical" again. It's expensive, bulky, and a pain to deal with.
 

lumen aeternum

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In addition to the liabilities - operational and legal - associated with user-replaceable cells, I do not believe such solutions will reliably deliver the kinds of current that power tool packs can. Spot-welding the connections makes for a highly reliable connection with almost zero contact resistance.

Can't imagine any legal problems with modifying something I own.
Resistance & contact when dropped might be an issue - not when using the pack for a stationary lantern though.
But flashlights with high amp draw do use a spring, so that is solvable.
At worst, use a set-screw to push a flat plate into contact with the battery, and/or a clamp over the battery so it does not dislodge if dropped.

WRT the logic board - the board must have wires that go to the battery pack, and they can be spliced/soldered into the replacement battery holder in the same configuration. Might be possible to 3D print a battery holder that attachs to the bottom of the original unit, so you don't have to print the upper part that goes into the tool.
 

turbodog

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I actually looked through 6-8 of the links you sent.

Few observations:

1. They are all talking about the same problems brought up in this thread already.
2. Power tool batteries also need the pack to be compact and very rugged if dropped.
3. Etc.

Not saying it's not possible, simply not realistic and economically a net loss.
 

idleprocess

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Can't imagine any legal problems with modifying something I own.
The legal problems will be on the manufacturer's side were they to provide packs with removable non-welded cells. Someone blowing up their hand using mismatched cells is almost an inevitability. And even if they cannot successfully litigate, the damage to the brand will be very real as they cry on social media everywhere and get news coverage.

Resistance & contact when dropped might be an issue - not when using the pack for a stationary lantern though.
This is a decent use case. And there have been modders and tinkerers a-plenty that have rebuilt power tool packs using high-density cells for such purposes - i.e. ~3C-capable cells slotted into a Ryobi ONE+ pack ought provide decent runtime on their 150W inverter - just don't try to run a drill or saw with that pack.

But flashlights with high amp draw do use a spring, so that is solvable.
They're generally not pushing the kind of amps a power tool draws, and any stepdown or resistance at peak amps isn't as noticeable with a flashlight as it is a power tool one might routinely run at 90% of rated load. Also - outside of the occasional 'spring bypass mod', flashlights pretty much always use coil springs so there's a lot less A/B to compare to than there would be an OEM power tool pack verses a 'no spot weld' rebuilt pack.

At worst, use a set-screw to push a flat plate into contact with the battery, and/or a clamp over the battery so it does not dislodge if dropped.
As has been mentioned, there are solutions out there for the hobbyist - they're just less practical for power tool battery packs than rebuilding them with a spot-welder or soldering iron.

WRT the logic board - the board must have wires that go to the battery pack, and they can be spliced/soldered into the replacement battery holder in the same configuration. Might be possible to 3D print a battery holder that attachs to the bottom of the original unit, so you don't have to print the upper part that goes into the tool.
There are dozens of files on sites like thingiverse that replicate parts of power tool battery housings and adapt them to other purposes - such as slotting into other makes of tool. But note that all such files I've come across are 'drop-in' replacements for OEM that assume you will be welding the cells together.

For all the effort you seem willing to put into this, it seems like procuring - or obtaining access to (i.e. vis-à-vis a makerspace) - a battery spot-welder will provide superior results at a lower cost with less risk once one masters the skills of pack disassembly and re-welding cells.
 
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DIWdiver

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The e-bike and powerwall applications are quite different from power tool applications, particularly in the cell current. Does anyone ever build a powerwall that can be drained in 20 minutes or less? Or an e-bike that needs to be charged every 20 minutes? No.

In general the cell currents of these devices are intended to be between c/1 and c/30, maybe even less. In power tools the cell currents are (at high load) between 3C and 10C, maybe higher.

So the power tool pack requires a much lower resistance connection to the cell than the other applications require. Thus solutions that work well for powerwalls and e-bikes don't necessarily work well for power tools.

I'm not saying it's impossible to build a power tool pack with replaceable cells, I'm just saying I haven't yet seen a practical solution.
 
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