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Thread: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* :)>'s Avatar
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    Default A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I hate to do it... I hate to turn this peace-loving forum into a conflagration where dualing opinions and points of view spill over into rancor but this is something that I think is important enough to say that I must risk it

    The JETBeam RRT01 Raptor 2020 edition is an unnatural abomination

    Now, having said what I just did, I must say that it is a fantastic light and a great bargain...

    Okay Goatee, what gives? How can you hold such ideas in mind; I mean, how can you hold what appear to be contradictory ideas in you great and powerful flashaholic mind?

    Well, hear me out before you lock my account down or ban me from the forum!!! I beg your indulgence, I only want to share my point of view even though it may be different than yours

    My views are based on the newly added switch at the end of the light and here is the crux of the matter... when you press a switch that is mean to turn the light on, it should turn the light on. There you have it. I think that is a hard point to argue, no? It doesn't matter whether it turns the light on to the lowest, the highest or any level in between, what matters is that if you click the switch from the off position, the light should turn on.

    Now, opinions probably vary on what the lowest level should be (I would say .5 lumens) but we surely can all agree that it is a design concept fail to have an on / off switch that fails to turn the light on sometimes but that never fails to turn the light off.

    What are your thoughts? Is there any room for common ground or are we hopelessly far apart such that we are destined to drift into competing camps who work against one another using any means necessary to destroy each other?

    Here are some additional thoughts:

    1. It should not be marketed as tactical unless they change the operation to be such that the light comes on at full power whenever the switch at the back of the light is pressed and the switch at the light should be a true momentary... you don't want the light to latch on when it should have gone off and you don't want to have to remember to engage in critical thinking about the lights function when you are in a situation where the light turning on and off matters.
    2. In a non-tactical light, the ideal switch at the end, for me, is a 2-stage momentary like Surefire uses where a short press gives you access to a low level and a full press give you access to a high level. The latching function of the Olight Warrior Mini is pretty awesome but I think I might give that up to avoid some of the troubles they are having with melting lenses and burning clothes.
    3. Combining the Raptors awesome magnetic level control ring with a 2-stage momentary at the tail end of the light would produce a wondrous light. The two levels should be set like Surefire's levels are on the EDCL-1T but it would allow the levels to be "turbo" (exceeding the current 500 lumen level of the EDCL-1T and 5-10 lumens... Surefire, can you hear me?
    Last edited by :)>; 01-17-2021 at 07:07 AM. Reason: Continuous Improvement
    -Goatee

  2. #2

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Push button, it turns on at whatever level you last had it set to. Push button again it turns off.
    Half press to signal at whatever level you last set it at.

    Call it tactical? Eh, to me that's up to the user. Afterall even an umbrella or an inkpen can be used for tactical purposes……
    John 3:16

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    +

    The 2020 RRT01 is a fantastic light, I run it on an 18500 & use it everyday.
    So few lights can use a single 18500


    'Tactical' = marketing,, for anything

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    Flashaholic* :)>'s Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
    Push button, it turns on at whatever level you last had it set to. Push button again it turns off.
    Half press to signal at whatever level you last set it at.

    Call it tactical? Eh, to me that's up to the user. Afterall even an umbrella or an inkpen can be used for tactical purposes……
    This would be an improvement also! I do like the ability to set the ring to max and then have momentary access to maximum. I also agree that the marketing of the light as tactical is a minor point. What I would offer, however, is that the design choices available to a designer increase if the notion of tactical operation is eliminated. No need to worry about tactical considerations in the design development process.

    Imagine if the RRT's selector ring were a part of the Surefire EDCL-1T's design (or a miniaturized U2's) and the tailcap were to act exactly the same but the ring took over when the light was "latched" in the on position. Might be hard to pull off, but the capabilities for such a light would make it second to none (assuming the reliability and run-times were not compromised).
    -Goatee

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    Flashaholic* :)>'s Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    +

    The 2020 RRT01 is a fantastic light, I run it on an 18500 & use it everyday.
    So few lights can use a single 18500


    'Tactical' = marketing,, for anything

    I agree it is fantastic. I did make an order, however, for the 2019 version because of my views on the switch... which means I will have a 2020 version up for trade
    -Goatee

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    Flashaholic* :)>'s Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Here is a "problem" with the switch design... when I pick up the light, I don't know if the light will turn on when I press the tail cap... now, this is a small matter and one that is easily overcome, but we are not here because we are okay with lights that are "good enough", right? My recommendations and thoughts are not meant to be slight's to this excellent light, but musings on what might make good into great... maybe perfect.

    We are so close to what I would regard as the "perfect light" design. I think the Olight Warrior Mini's tailcap switch function and overall design is a winner... lose the latching feature of the tail-cap switch and add an RRT or U2-style selector ring for level selection and the UI would be my dream come true. Same applies to the RRT... Change the switch at the end of the light to be turbo or memory and always have the light turn on when it is activated and it's hard to find reasons to complain and easy to find reason's to love.
    -Goatee

  7. #7

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Oh, people will find a reason to want a change. 5500k too cool, 5400k too warm, switch travel too long, too short……

    I told a freind not long ago you could ask 1000 CPF'rs to take a 10 mile hike across the desert, and you couldn't get 5 to agree on cantine size, then 976 of those disagreeing with the roster of available cantine sizes weren't going on the hike anyway.

    Like you said this is a place where "good enough" does not apply most of the time.
    John 3:16

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    Flashaholic* Katherine Alicia's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
    Oh, people will find a reason to want a change. 5500k too cool, 5400k too warm, switch travel too long, too short……

    I told a freind not long ago you could ask 1000 CPF'rs to take a 10 mile hike across the desert, and you couldn't get 5 to agree on cantine size, then 976 of those disagreeing with the roster of available cantine sizes weren't going on the hike anyway.

    Like you said this is a place where "good enough" does not apply most of the time.

    As long as the cantine is high CRI, I`m good

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    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    +

    Don't forget the $159 'tactical' cantine

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* Katherine Alicia's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    And I want an aspheric on my cantine so I can share water with those a distance away.

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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine Alicia View Post
    And I want an aspheric on my cantine so I can share water with those a distance away.
    At the expense of those nearest.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    +

    Make sure there's room in your tactical back pack to carry a solar powered combination tactical toothbrush/shortwave radio..

    ...that matches your tactical shoelaces.




    there is no end to this

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* Katherine Alicia's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by wweiss View Post
    At the expense of those nearest.
    it`s a Tactical move

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* Outdoorsman5's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine Alicia View Post
    As long as the cantine is high CRI, I`m good
    HAAA! Hilarious!!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I bought OD green tactical knickers, they came with a twisty and clicky

  16. #16
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I think there is too much interpretation into what tactical means.

    Gas pedal switches can be used tactically but also as a regular edc. So can the Raptor. It’s like knowing the safety was on a gun when the gun was last put away.

    There’s been a lot of posts recently about Olights turning on and burning a hole in the pants. Things like this can be avoided if the user use the lock out or the holsters that the light comes with. Is it tactical? I don’t know lol.

    I think it’s up to the user to find out the specs of any product and determine whether it can be used tactically.

    Buying something because it says tactical? Well, don’t be surprised if it doesn’t meet your expectations.

  17. #17

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by :)> View Post
    Here is a "problem" with the switch design... when I pick up the light, I don't know if the light will turn on when I press the tail cap...
    HDS has the same feature. You can leave the dial in any position, and use the tailswitch to turn on and off at that level. This is essentially a Last Mode Memory feature.

    if you dont want to use the Last Mode Memory feature on the 2020 RRT-01, then you could just leave the tailswitch ON all the time, and use only the control ring to ramp up to whatever level you need at the time, and dial down to the minimum detente after each use.

    I have no surefire experience, so without links and photos, I dont know what youre talking about, but it sounds way too complicated, and Im totally confused.

    a true tactical light has only ONE mode, and always, always, always, works exactly the same way. Imo half presses are not tactical.. fine motor skills are lost under stress. And IMO, a true tactical has ONLY momentary on, while pressing the switch.. if you drop the light, it turns off, so as not to give away your position. (sounds ridiculous, I know, now youre in the dark, and cant see your light on the ground)

    extra credit quiz:
    What does the acronym RRT stand for?;-)

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    RRT = In some states Rail Road Train crossing

  19. #19

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    IMO, there are a few problems with the term "tactical." One, using KISS, doing one thing "always" is better for stressful situations. Two, "tactical" can mean different things, e.g. low light activity, always on high mode is not preferred and vice versa. Three, like other "tactical" items, often different "users" will be trained to use it in different ways, with different "features" required. The problem is trying to get that one tool that covers multiple bases, as most people don't want 10 flashlights for 10 different situations, and then plan ahead to outfit themselves with the 3-4 they might need throughout the day, or use one great at one thing, and dealing with it's limitations for other situations. Yes, I am one of the "multi-use" guys... except when I need something specific, e.g. a COB worklight with magnet for working under the hood of my car. Also, hard use items usually require a certain level of QC, mass production, and customer support... that's another ball of wax.

    IMO, most flashlights with multiple modes are basically marketing to the multitool type crowd. I use and carry a multitool for small and short fixes, but spend a few hours with one instead of the proper, dedicated tools and you'll soon stop looking for the next best multitool before filling up a couple toolboxes with dedicated tools plus mobile tool bags. I think everyone has certain modes, features, and/or specs they prioritize for flashlights. Trying to get that perfect combo for the masses has to be pretty close to impossible.

    That being said, my favorite UI for general EDC is the one used for Eagletac's Clicky line using the mode memory feature and tightening for always high activation... I also like having the mechanical switch. I just wish they had a momentary on option. Anything "tactical" for me would not be that great for general use, and would pretty much be dedicated to non-general use situations.

  20. #20

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I agree the term "Tactical" has been used to mean widely different things.

    RRT = Rapid Response Tactical



    Thats a 2019 RRT-01. It has no tailswitch. Some would argue Tactical requires tailswitch... etc

    does not really matter.. Stepless Rotary is an incredibly intuitive UI, no matter how you spin the marketing..
    Last edited by jon_slider; 01-17-2021 at 11:00 PM.

  21. #21

    Party Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Oh well, just wait until someone includes the word "Tacticool" again!

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* Beamhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I prefer rotary lights with a tail clicky. My experience with the high parasitic drain of the Niteye and another Jetbeam dictate so. My SWM's with clicky tail caps have been flawless. I have 2 of the 2020 RRT01's and they fit the bill for me.
    How are they "rapid response" let alone "tactical"?
    Last edited by Beamhead; 01-18-2021 at 01:25 AM.
    Quando Omni Flunkis Moritati

  23. #23

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by Beamhead View Post
    parasitic drain

    imo, concern about parasitic drain is exaggerated FUD..

    Quote Originally Posted by selfbuilt
    Standby Drain

    For the RRT-01, the standby current fluctuated between ~50-65uA on CR123A (~55uA average). It was a little lower on 1xRCR, at ~30uA. For a typical 1400mAh CR123A and 750mAh RCR, this would translate into ~2.9 years before a fresh cell would be fully discharged, in both cases. This is not a concern, but you can always twist the head slightly to physically lock-out the light.
    once I learned RRT-01 parasitic drain takes years..
    it became a non issue for me.
    The drain is the same for all 3 RRT-01 models, 2012, 2019, and 2020
    Last edited by jon_slider; 01-18-2021 at 09:45 AM.

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    Flashaholic* Beamhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    imo, concern about parasitic drain is exaggerated FUD..



    once I learned RRT-01 parasitic drain takes years..
    it became a non issue for me.
    The drain is the same for all 3 RRT-01 models, 2012, 2019, and 2020
    I was speaking of the Niteye and other Jetbeam and for the record I measured 33ma myself which proves out my cells dying in days.
    Quando Omni Flunkis Moritati

  25. #25

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by Beamhead View Post
    the Niteye and other Jetbeam and for the record I measured 33ma myself which proves out my cells dying in days.
    thanks for sharing your experiences

    Im not sure which Niteye and "other" Jetbeam you mean,

    Sounds like youre getting a very different measurement than selfbuilt, for the 2012 Jetbeam RRT-01.
    (same driver as Niteye Eye10)

    which light did you measure at 33ma? (thats not "normal" for an RRT-01)
    sorry to hear,
    makes sense it kills cells in days..

    fwiw, we can still buy replacement 2019 and 2020 RRT-01 drivers... from info at jetbeamlight dot com

    It can definitely happen, that a driver will have unusually high parasitic drain
    Unfortunately I own a Nitecore D20 that kills AA cells in 3 days.. thats just Wrong!
    and sadly, for that one, I cannot buy a replacement driver

    I can unscrew the head, but, if I forget, I kill the batteries..
    have not decided yet, whether to put it in the garbage..

    I have other Nitecore Piston Drive lights, and they dont kill batteries in 3 days.. so I know my D20 is not normal.
    Last edited by jon_slider; 01-18-2021 at 04:43 PM.

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* Beamhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Both the niteye EYE10 TIC and the TCR20 read the exact 33-34ma. The TCR 20 had the weird end switch so it was able to be locked out, the EYE10 I had to shorten the spring so it could be physically locked out.
    That is why I like the 2020 RRT-01's.
    Quando Omni Flunkis Moritati

  27. #27

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by Beamhead View Post
    Both the niteye EYE10 TIC and the TCR20 read the exact 33-34ma
    I cant explain why these three other people are getting different data than you:
    the 2012 has a drain of 30uA
    the 2019 has a drain of 27uA
    the 2020 has a drain of 28uA

    I have not had any parasitic drain issues with any of my RRT-01's TCR-1s nor Eye10, nor Eye10 TiC

    what I have experienced, is sudden darkness when using a protected battery

    this happens because on a low battery, it is possible to trip protection by turning the dial to maximum

    for this reason I use UnProtected batteries in my stepless rotaries. They just get dimmer, and wont reach as high a maximum, as voltage drops.. this becomes noticeable to me, so I recharge.. but Im never suddenly in the dark, from tripping a protection fuse.
    Last edited by jon_slider; 01-18-2021 at 11:02 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Asked and answered.. Thanks Jon!

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* nightshade's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    I've modded and repaired a few dozen of the 2012 version RRTO1. It's a very time proven and robust design. All parts including o-rings, lenses, magnets, retention spring and ball,etc.are (relatively)easily sourced. It allow several led dies and footprints to be used. The only part I hand make is the battery spring.
    Driver repair, even replacement , thanks to JB parts department, are possible. I've only experienced one with a abnormal parasitic drain problem and that was due to a resistor mod gone wrong with solder trace damage.
    At some point I need to check out the new offering.

  30. #30

    Default Re: A Controversial Possibly Incendiary Point Of View

    Quote Originally Posted by nightshade View Post
    At some point I need to check out the new offering.
    you may find the 2020 driver interesting, it adds thermal step down to the 2019 driver

    If you try one of the new models, you may also enjoy the 18650 extensions, they fit the 2019 and 2020 hosts.

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