Canoe buying advice?

avusblue

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Hey guys, I've yet to find the topic that doesn't have somebody out there in CPFland who's an expert. So here's today's flavor of the day: Canoes.

I am thinking of buying a canoe for family paddling on a small lake. (I am trying to keep this a secret from mama bear, to surprise her on her upcoming birthday, although the kids are in on it.)

I'm pretty much a canoe novice. After several trips to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area on the Minnesota / Canada border as a teenager, I've not set foot in one in probably 15 years. I do remember the classic Grumman aluminum canoes:

canoe1-b.jpg


as very rugged, maintenance free, and pretty much standard issue for all the outfitters back then. They are still available, manufactured by Marathon Boat. By default, I think I would lean towards one of these, just because I remember them so fondly. But I know just from browsing www.paddling.net that there are a variety of new plastics and composites out there that are pretty highly regarded.

Anything else you all can tell me that I oughta know??

I am open to considering a used canoe. I figure the types of questions to ask are things like:

Any dents or visible wear and tear?
Any fading or visible weathering?
Any leaks or seepage?

What else?

Thanks for any and all helpful input. If we're gonna do this, I need to get it bought within the next coupla weeks.

Cheers,

Dave
 

DrGwat

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I have a Grumman 17.5' canoe.
Disadvantages of aluminum: very noisy, has keel (good for lake use but restrictive on fast moving water), and aluminum isn't as slippery over rocks as other materials.
Advantages: every time I use it, I am reminded of all the scout canoe trips I went on long ago.
 

Darkaway

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I'm certainly no expert but I've had an Old Town Discovery 158 for seven years. It derives its name from its 15'8" length. It's a good all around boat. My wife and 2 kids plus camping gear all fit in easily, and at 80 pounds it's not too hard to carry on top of the SUV.

It's made of plastic laminated with a styrofoam type material and it's almost bulletproof. Even if it's cut in half the pieces will still float. Quiet too. The plastic will scratch easily on rocks but the damage is cosmetic.

Our kids are still young so our paddling is limited to flatwater and occasional class 1 whitewater.

Have fun!!!
 

Moat

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I too am no expert, but I second Darkway's confidence in Old Town's - at one time I owned a Discovery 171 (17'1") bought used (and terribly abused) from a canoe livery in a college town (party abuse!!).

http://www.otccanoe.com/canoes_choosing.php

My Discovery's hull was UV stabilized polyethylene skins fused to a polyethylene foam core (essentially "one" material) - Superlink3(??) I think they call it. Scuffs easily (soft), but very difficult to scratch/cut deeply, and virtually dent-proof (if it does dent, you just pop it out with a kick/baseball bat!).

Durable, quiet, maintenance free, quite efficient in the water, naturally bouyant (requires no additional floatation to the hull, which adds up to more interior room) - and the 171 was rated at around 1100lbs. capacity. A lot for it's size.

The only real downsides are the scuffing and weight - they are heavy (75-85lbs. or so). Many other boats are lighter and faster, but I doubt any are as durable. And I feel they're significantly faster than the old aluminum Grummans (partially because it's easier to mold plastic to an efficient shape, than forming aluminum - and also because they hold that shape for the life of the hull).

I do believe there are other similar designs choices (Mad River?), too.

A great choice for a safe, lifetime all-around family boat. From what I've seen, they have become somewhat of the industry standard for rentals/liveries in northern Michigan and Wisconsin - and if any canoe gets beat on and put up wet, those do! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
 

Hoghead

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I bought my 17' We-no-nah from canoegear.com near Ely, Mn. They have a lot of used canoes and they are great people to deal with.
It's made out of Ryolex (very tough). I got this just for the Boundry Waters.
 

javafool

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New Haven, IN
I owned 2 Coleman canoes, a 15' and a 17', and liked them very much for the same reasons listed above. They were quiet, dent proof and easy to maneuver. The 17' seemed easier to paddle because it drew less draft by sitting higher in the water.

I also liked using aluminum paddles. The aluminum oxide that makes your hands turn gray also lubricates them preventing blisters we would have had using wood paddles. Heck, it just rinses off in the lake or river at the end of the trip.

TerryF
 

SilverFox

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Hello Dave,

Lots of good information here.

I'll put a plug in for the Coleman canoes. Our Boy Scout Troop has a fleet of 17 footers and they have held up very well.

Tom
 

NoShadow

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After all is said and done be sure to ask yourself the one very important question: Does it float? This is paramount. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"I can. Canoe?"
 

DBrier

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Like Hoghead said, Ryolex is the stuff. It doesn't sound like you want to take it off your property much, so I would pick durability over weight.
If you want the most durable canoe available, go look at what canoe liveries use, mostly Old Town and Aluminum Grumunds. The are the best price/durability canoes.

At work we use Blue Holes for doing river clean ups. Two of them were made in the early 80s and are holding up very well for the hell we put them through. They are not cheap though.
 

lingpau

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Hi Dave ! I highly recommend one of the Old Town canoes. I currently have six. Four of them are Discovery 158s. The other two are Old Town Guides. The Discovery 158 is well suited for a family up to four and up to class 3 water. They also have a Discovery 168 which has a little more capacity if your kids are older or need a little more room. I use these canoes in a school setting and in one year, these canoes get more use that your family can give them in 10. They are quality and hold up very well to almost any abuse. Get the ones with the molded plastic seats. Check with your local dealer and see if he can get a blem model from Old Town. They usually give about $100 discount for a slight color imperfection or small bubble imperfection which in no way hurts the quality or strength of the canoe. If you can't get an Old Town in your area, go with one of the Ryolex or "plastic" type canoes. They are much easier on the family. As for paddles, aluminum and plastic paddles hold up much better than wood. Many years ago,I owned a 17' Grumman white water canoe and it was excellent, but the new plastic type canoes are easier to clean, hold their shape better and are less likely to cut you up after they get some scrapes and scratches on them. Good Luck !
 

avusblue

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Thanks for all the good input, guys. I am still leaning towards an aluminum Grumman. Nostalgia might be a big driving reason, but having done a bit more research it seems that while the plastic canoes are indeed quieter and more dent resistant, they fade and deteriorate over time and exposure to sunlight. The aluminum canoes are basically indestructible, maintenance free, and there are a fair number of people still actively using 25 or even 50 year old Grummans. As this is a canoe that will basically sit up at our cabin and not need to be transported anywhere, metal sounds appealing, in that we can just leave it out and drag it down to the beach when we want to go paddle.

Anyways, thanks again and keep the ideas coming. Any helpful hints on how to assess the quality of a used aluminum canoe would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Dave
 

raggie33

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what is the lightest canoe i can like a smaller canoe but i want very light
 

gadgetboy

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Does Old Town still make the Discovery 158? Maybe I've missed it, but I don't see it on their site anymore. I might be looking for a used one soon. Can they get "ruined" in any way that I should look out for?
Thanks - Sean
 

MoonRise

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Like just about everything, it's all about tradeoffs.

Figure out what you want the canoe for. How many people and how much cargo in the canoe? One adult and a ham sandwich for an hour on a calm lake? Or two adults, four small/medium children, the family Newfoundland Retriever, and a weeks worth a groceries? Do you want speed and straight line tracking (long stiff canoe) or do you want maneuverability and the ability to slip into small places in between boulders on a river (smaller canoe with different body construction)?

Construction and materials involve trade-offs as well. You trade off weight for money mostly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Light and stiff makes for a good canoe, but that costs money (Kevlar construction). Heavy and flexible is less expensive, but then you have to carry the dang thing at some point (heavy) and the performance isn't as good.

Do you want Arc or Surefire level performance from the canoe, or will you be happy with NoName-2D-slide-switch-and-dim-yellow-bulb level performance?

You mentioned paddling.net, check out their Canoe Buyer's Guide . Also check out Mad River Canoe Design and Construction for some more design ideas and their trade-offs.

Check out You Can Paddle Demos and see if there is one near you so that you can go and TRY out a bunch of different canoes and find one that FITS you.
 

DBrier

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The biggest downside to the aluminum canoe is heat. The seats get hot, the gunnels and thwarts are hot. Sun + aluminium is a bad combo for bare legs.
 

Ordin_Aryguy

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Last year I bought an Old Town Discovery 169. She's a real battleship. Once on the water it's a pleasure to paddle, but getting her 80+ pounds off of the roof rack and to the shore is something a bit less than fun.

It's big, wide, stable, and will hold more weight that I could ever possibly put in it. It's wide enough that my kids sit side by side, each in their own fold chair, at midship. With the kids sitting that way there's enough clear floor space to hold a decent square dance... or a tackle box, and a huge cooler, and a dry bag, with a change of clothes, and a... you get the idea.

The only drawback to the Discovery series is the weight.

Ordin
 

avusblue

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Saint Paul, Minnesota
I realize I never followed up. I appreciate everyone's advice -- I bought an Old Town Ojibway (which is a new model, superceding the Discovery 158). It paddles great, looks great, is comfortable . . . and mama's happy. All's well that ends well, and with the wise advice of CPF, usually it's gonna end well.

Cheers,

Dave

[ QUOTE ]
gadgetboy said:
Does Old Town still make the Discovery 158? Maybe I've missed it, but I don't see it on their site anymore. I might be looking for a used one soon. Can they get "ruined" in any way that I should look out for?
Thanks - Sean

[/ QUOTE ]
 

bwcaw

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For what you are going to use your canoe for an aluminum canoe should be fine. The only thing about aluminum is if you are ever going to use it for any tripping in the bwcaw you will soon wish you had bought a lighter boat. Aluminum boats aren't as manuverable as royalex or composite boats either. But if you are going to leave your canoe outside for months at a time and just use if for short trips around the lake it should be just fine. You may try an outfitter, they usually have scads of old aluminum canoes for sale that you could buy for very little money. We have had an alumacraft canoe for about 20 years (it is older than me!) and it still works just as good as the day it was new. You really have to work at it to ruin one.

They aren't much fun for boundary waters travel though. Composite boats are way better for that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good luck!

EDIT: oh duh, you got an old town. Those are nice! I should read the whole thread before i post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif
 
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