60 Minutes II - Abused Iraqi Prisoners

fivebyfive

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Anyone see that report on the Army reserve soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners on 60 minutes? I support our troops 100% of the way, but we need to be better than the people we are fighting. We need to hold ourselves to standards above everyone else if we are going to invade a nation and make an attempt to show its people a better life. No matter how you look at this, these Iraqi prisoners are still human beings. I hope what I saw was the minority of prisons in Iraq. So, what do you guys think of the treatment and what should happen to these soldiers? Here's a link in case you missed it on TV. CBS news

Photos photos
 

Silviron

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Didn't see the program, but an hour or so later, I heard two woman talking about it in the store.

One was telling the other that Rather said that ALL of the soldiers over there were murdering, raping and torturing anyone that they want; That Rather had pictures of it and everything.

I was absolutely agog. Shades of 1971 and kerry.

Rushed home to find out what was happening. Found out from the CBS website and a couple of other sources that it was an isolated incident. Someone screwed up, and the unfortunate combination of an incompetent leader and untrained RESERVISTS lead to some stupid games and many things against the Geneva Convention (To which the Baathists and Al Qaeda are not signatories, by the way, so don't give me any crap about "against international law", especially when they are doing things MUCH worse every day themselves) and more importantly against the orders and policies of the Administration and the Pentagon.

Those responsible were already in the process of being court martialed. The military was policing itself. Someone leaked the information to Dan Rather, and as a good Democrat, he made a lurid show out of it and attempted to imply wholesale atrocities by our military rather than the aberration that it was.

Not that I or anyone rational condones such treatment of prisoners, but it seems to be vastly overblown. No one was permanently harmed as far as I can tell. Under Saddam, they saw (and many of the prisoners DID to THEIR prisoners) much worse every day. Those who actually engaged in those reprehensible acts should (and probably will) do hard time in Leavenworth. The woman General will probably skate, but I rather imagine she will be forced to resign in lieu of getting busted to Major.

Was not surprised that the liberals would hear this and blow it up into a widespread condemnation of our magnificent troops though.
 

Silviron

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Compared to being shot, beaten, stabbed, stoned, burned, dismembered, dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge, yeah, I'd say "some stupid games".

Compared being slowly fed feet first into an industrial shredder, I'd say, Yeah, "some stupid games"

Compared to your entire village being nerve gassed, I'd say "some stupid games".

Compared to seeing your wife and children raped and beaten right in front of your eyes, I'd say, Yeah, some stupid games".

NO ONE IS CONDONING WHAT THOSE FEW OF OUR PEOPLE DID.

I hope that they are HARSHLY punished. What they will probably experience in Leavenworth Prison will be just about as harsh as the treatment they dished out, and it will last a LOT longer.

I had command of a few details of "escorting" some military prisoners (ours) to and from Leavenworth, and believe me it is no place anyone wants to be. I'd rather get beat up a few times and have a few people playing some juvenile mental degradation games with me then spend a month in Leavenworth.... much less be a PRISONER there.
 

03lab

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

"Compared to ..." Are those the standards nowadays?
I agree with fivebyfive: "We need to hold ourselves to standards above everyone else ...". No matter what other people do. I know that the vast majority of soldiers does a good job, but I just feel disgusted by the pictures.
 

RadarGreg

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Silviron, do you REALLY think this is a liberal democrat attack on the military? I find that laughable. You probably thought the Tail Hook scandal was just a bunch of "Boys being Boys" too. There is no excuse for what the soldiers did and their punishment should be severe. Would you care to see our American soldiers tortured or forced to pose for pictures like this if they were being held? I don't think so. To try and hide this from the world public would bring further shame and hatred to the many Americans who are serving our country.
 

Greta

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Geez guys.... wanna take a minute and read Silviron's posts before you go off half cocked and start accusing him of things he didn't say or even imply? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Seems to me you're more intent on picking a fight where there is none... he's not disagreeing with any of you... kinda sucks, I know... but life is funny like that sometimes... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif
 

James S

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

After reading the entire article, and any more material I can find, I do not find an inditement of the entire military, quite the contrary in fact. I am very proud of the men that turned in their fellow Americans that engaged in this.

First of all, I think that using the word torture is sensationalist. The prisoners in question were humiliated and even degraded, but the word torture in Iraq brings a very different, an in this case completely inaccurate image of what was happening.

The men responsible for this were turned in by the other Americans there. Not by an international court, or a foreign observer. The American troops there are overwhelmingly honorable people and they know what was out of line and stepped in to stop it.

I would have taken this as a triumph of our military to police itself in such matters. This does not absolve the folks responsible, or make it less reprehensible. What it should do is restore your faith in the good people that are there who were not involved.
 

JerryM

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

I am sure without a shadow of a doubt, that whatever they did they will answer for, and will be punished.
The liberal types are always looking for something to criticize about the military and especially our President.

Most of them would not make a pimple on a soldiers - - nose.
Even less as a president.

Anybody here who does not like our military and wants to make sure the combatants or other citizens of Iraq are properly cared for, then go there and see to it.

Our military leaders are high quality people, and take their jobs seriously. If fact they are far more intelligent, conscientious, and honorable than the general populace.

Jerry
 

BC0311

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

What a bunch of dippy stockade guards. The Army was onto this before CBS's Dan Rather gushed in indignation about it.

I'm confident the individuals who did these things are finished in the US Army. When they get out of the stockade and (being reservists) return to their civilian jobs they are going to be pariahs in the eyes of most Americans, Republicrat or Democan.

This Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick sounds like a world class cheese***k of the worse sort. He should just shut up and take what he has coming to him.

That rather dykey female soldier will probably make all sorts of money on the talk show circuit. All the networks will want her. Oprah, Ellen Degenerate and, of course, 60 Minutes will want her.

Good to see a Brigadier General was rounded up with all the snuffies. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I'd say give 'em "6, 6 and a kick". 6 months loss of pay, 6 months at hard labor in the brig, and Dishonorably Discharged. Minimum.

They might as well have been on the Saddam Fedayeen payroll for the propaganda they've provided to everyone who wants Bush and the Americans fighting in Iraq to look bad and be forced to turn things over to UN and pull out.

Britt
 

artar

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

[ QUOTE ]
James S said:
The men responsible for this were turned in by the other Americans there. Not by an international court, or a foreign observer.

[/ QUOTE ]

US soldiers in foreign countries are untouchable for local or international courts. this is unique worldwide.
 

Aten_Imago

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I'm not surprised. War brings out the innate baseness of humans anyway. Our sometimes 'oh so egalitarian' views of ourselves (here in LaLa Land) strike me as being very comical and hypocritical. You should see the way prisoners here in the USA are treated. That's not something your going to see a report on anytime soon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Let it all be a good lesson to those that stood by and said nothing when the Little Man In The White House and his co-conspirators were hatching this scheme and easily fooling America & some of the world's leaders into buying into it. I just feel sorry that these lessons don't seem sink into our heads- at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif [ QUOTE ]
fivebyfive said:
...We need to hold ourselves to standards above everyone else if we are going to invade a nation and make an attempt to show its people a better life.

[/ QUOTE ]
 

BC0311

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[ QUOTE ]
Aten_Imago said:
I'm not surprised. War brings out the innate baseness of humans anyway. Our sometimes 'oh so egalitarian' views of ourselves (here in LaLa Land) strike me as being very comical and hypocritical. You should see the way prisoners here in the USA are treated. That's not something your going to see a report on anytime soon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Let it all be a good lesson to those that stood by and said nothing when the Little Man In The White House and his co-conspirators were hatching this scheme and easily fooling America & some of the world's leaders into buying into it. I just feel sorry that these lessons don't seem sink into our heads- at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you have never fought in a war and have formed your ideas concerning fighting men from years of TV and Movies made by people who have no real life experience with the subject beyond the watching of other movies and TV.

What stands out to me a generation later was how much selflessness, compassion and sacrifice was manifested in the midst of the most hostile and brutal environment on earth.

If you had your way, these Iraqi prisoners would indeed not have been abused by these guards....however, many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians would still be left to the tender mercies of Saddam, his evil spawn and toadies.....indefinitely.

Britt
 

dark star

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I was a Marine MP for a year, I saw "stuff happen" to prisoners ( fellow servicemen ). Its bad to be a prisoner in any country, there are guards who will take advantage of the situation. Of course those guards should be locked away for a long time, and the United States is one of the few places where that may happen.
 

BB

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

[ QUOTE ]
artar said:
[ QUOTE ]
James S said:
The men responsible for this were turned in by the other Americans there. Not by an international court, or a foreign observer.

[/ QUOTE ]

US soldiers in foreign countries are untouchable for local or international courts. this is unique worldwide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not in every case--Here is a CBS story from 2002 about a US service member turned over to Japan, by the US, for trial and eventual conviction of rape:

CBS: 32 months for Rape

[ QUOTE ]
(CBS) A Japanese court convicted a U.S. airman Thursday of raping a Japanese woman and sentenced him to 32 months in jail, concluding a case that deepened resentment toward American troops stationed in Okinawa.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US Military, as a whole, are people of whom we can be very proud of--not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than this group of "soldiers".

4 US Contractors "abused" by **** (caution, link to graphic pictures)

Still want to compare?

-Bill
 
B

Birmingham47

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Fully agree with BC0311! I commend the soldier that saw the pictures, knew it was wrong, and reported it. The Army was taking care of business before Danny boy got in the mix.

Read the article and you'll understand this:
That SGT needs to take another look at his position in the matter.
I received instruction in BASIC training on handling POWs and the Geneva convention. It was also required annual training for common tasks. Before deploying to Afghanistan we got another block of instruction and a cheat sheet printed by the Department of Defense that detailed the convention and handling POWs. And our unit was never expected to be involved w/ POWs. Aside from that, my mom and dad taught me right from wrong.
And he was a corrections officer in his full time job! He wants to claim the chain of command didn't train him? He's part of the chain of command. Just like society as a whole, the army has it's bad apples. This is NO reflection on what the rest of the military does in my eyes. These sadistic jerks would likely be doing something foul wherever they were no matter the organization.
The guys and gals in those pictures suck, but our military rocks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif
 
B

Birmingham47

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

As to the international court issue. Once a government is formed in Iraq, they will enter into a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) with the US. This will detail, among other things, what offenses can be tried by the military and which will be tried by the host nation. When an offense perpetrated by a soldier occurs, they look at the SOFA and decide how to handle the situation. S Korea, Germany, Italy, Honduras, Japan, etc. all have SOFA agreements.
 

BB

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Here is a quick summary of SOFA from a DOD presentation:

Notes from SOFA presentation

[ QUOTE ]
Status of Forces Agreements
Notes from a Presentation Delivered by
Frank Stone
Director, Military Foreign Affairs Office
Orlando, FL
April 10, 2002


* There is no single model Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
* SOFA texts vary considerably from one country to another
* SOFA provisions may be integrated into several different agreements.

History
* Evidence of SOFAs dating back to 1914.
* Applied a concept of the "Law of the Flag" -- a country's military applied their laws to military forces abroad.
* However, most of them were just passing through foreign territory and not permanently stationed there.
* Concept was that if conditions were not placed on transit then Law of the Flag granted immunity to military forces.

World War II
* SOFA does not apply during hostility or war.
* Courts and government organizations not normally operational during conflicts.
* As a result, U.S. Forces have immunity in Afghanistan and Kosovo.

1951 NATO SOFA
* U.S. proposed immunity; Europeans preferred more limited rights.
* Concurrent, or shared, criminal jurisdictions in 19 NATO and 17 PFP countriies.
* Ratification by Congress was close; included a Senate Resolution with requirements.
* NATO agreement only one that is reciprocal. Most other foreign forces in the U.S. have no status.
* Parties agreed to permit other privileges and rights, including relief from taxes, customs, immigration requirements, and sharing of payment for claims.

Despite Congressional reservations , US negotiated other similar agreements; Japan in 1960, Australia in 1963, and Korea in 1966.

To satisfy concerns over the NATO SOFA, the U.S. negotiated supplemental bilateral agreements in several countries:
* German supplementary agreement signed in 1963: approximately 120 pages long, covering a multitude of subjects.
* There are shorter supplemental agreements in several other countries.
* Supplemental agreements generally negotiated with countries where we have significant numbers of troops.

Agreements vary from country to country depending upon the circumstances.
* Don't need as many rights and privileges in a country with a western culture where there are only a few U.S. forces.
* In contrast, where there are large numbers of U.S. personnel in a country with a different culture and judicial system, need more extensive rights and privileges.

SOFA is a a very sensitive issue in some countries.
* In some countries it is referred to by different titles, such as in the Philippines it's called a visiting forces agreement (VFA).
* Proposal to negotiate a new SOFA in Panama, but continue to search for a name.
* Some countries obscure SOFA's existence by various means and classifying the document.

Spain, 1983
* Chapter IV in the Defense Cooperation Agreement.
* Prime Minister Gonzales spread other SOFA provisions throughout the Agreement.

Mongolia
* President met with Secretary of Defense William Perry.
* Asked for Defense Cooperation Agreement.
* State was concerned about the political implications.
* Changed title and provisions.

Treaties and Other International Agreements Series (TIAS)
* Contain all international agreements, including SOFAs.
* Bound by date, not subject, and referred to by TIAS number.

Treaties in Force (TIF)
* An index of agreements published annually.
* Bilateral agreements in front; multilateral agreements in back.
* Look up the country, then the subject.
* SOFAs all listed under "Defense," but often with a different title.

How to have a voice.
* Procedures (Directives and Instructions)
* DoD 1400-25.M
* SECNAVINST 5402.28A
* EUCOM Directive 30-6
* List of US Defense Representatives (USDR).
* Issues should be raised through POCs and chain of command.

[/ QUOTE ]
 

Unicorn

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Probably there will be a SOFA. But it's not guaranteed. Not every country has one with the US. Saudi Arabia for example does not, and yes we do have a few troops stationed there, other then the Marines at the Embassy.

I'd also like to remind everybody that they have not been convicted yet, they haven't even started the courts martial (this is a military trial, nothing more). What happened to that "innocent until proven guilty thing?" Or does that not apply to the military whenever Dan Blather has a few pics and some dumb... to interview?

fivebyfive,.
You hope that this is "the minority of prisons in Iraq"?!? So do you believe that most are actually ran the way that this one allegedly is?
If you or anyone else wants to help hold us to these high standards here is a simple suggestion: Join the military, earn some rank, and keep the soldiers under your command from doing anything stupid. Put your money where your mouth is.
 
B

Birmingham47

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Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

BB,
Nice Homework. Good info.
Unicorn,
You're right, I should have said they will Probably set up a SOFA. I based my opinion on the probability that there will be a large number of troops in the country for some time after the shooting, ie S. Korea. However, like Kosavo and Afghanistan there won't be one until the shooting stops.
And yes you're right, innocent until proven guilty.
The pics are bad though. It'll be ugly when, yes when, it goes to the court martial. It kinda has to go to the court martial now. You know the drill.
 
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