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Thread: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

  1. #1
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    I know for a fact that many Muslims do not believe what this Muslim Cleric or Member believed, but it should be pointed out that at least SOME do, and that they are the ones who we have to deal with.

    For the record, I have several friends who adhere to the fundamentals of Islam, they do NOT believe what this individual stated. I have several other friends who disagree with my beliefs, (and I with theirs) about Christianity and Catholocism. However, none of us who disagree within Christianity would propose anything so radical as "death to all infidels" as some Islamic Fundamentalists believe.

    Rick Mathes strongly confirms that the events occurred as written, some third parties disagree. Nevertheless, the basic point is well taken.

    By Rick Mathes

    Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

    The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and sked, "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

    There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "Non-believers!"

    I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

    The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

    I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

    The Imam was speechless.

    I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question! ...would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and wants you to be with me?"

    You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

    Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, "Rick, remember that the truth will prevail."

    And it will!

    If this has been posted before, I apologize.

    Bill

  2. #2

    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    Don't forget, it wouldn't be only Muslims that might believe that the leader of their religion charged them specifically to go forth and either conquer or convert the peoples of the world.

    When the Spanish invaded the "New World", do you know how the church supported their conquest of the Aztecs or the Incas?

    It would be simple enough to use the same phrase from your post and re-apply it as follows for those times:

    "I know for a fact that many [Christians] do not believe what this [Christian priest] or Member believed, but it should be pointed out that at least SOME do..."

    Religion has been used many times down thru the ages as the reason for wars, aggression or killing. Mostly, those times were simply a way to cloak human greed for power or money under the mantle of religion.

    Think of the many millions of muslims that live all over the world, including many here in the U.S., that do "love their neighbors" and the idea of "killing or converting" their neighbors is literally the farthest thing from their mind.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    are musslims from india to?we i lived in mareiita i new a lot of them they where very nice,

  4. #4
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    Ikendu,

    Though I understand your point about how religion has played a role in atrocities down through the ages, we are SUPPOSED to be advancing in that regard, not digressing.

    The truth is we are left with ONE major religion that advocates this kind of a position, we MUST figure out a way to reach in and touch enough of them to change something.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    [ QUOTE ]
    ikendu said:
    Think of the many millions of muslims that live all over the world, including many here in the U.S., that do "love their neighbors" and the idea of "killing or converting" their neighbors is literally the farthest thing from their mind.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And think of all the Christians going around saying-

    "You will go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus". In other words, God will kill you if don't endorse my personal religious beliefs.

    Ikendu is right. There are countless Muslims who have no interest in killing anyone and simply want to live a decent life- like half the folks in Iran who want to topple their religious Imams and go toward Western culture & values.

    And just who the heck is Rich Mathes anyway? If he is a member of a prison ministry, he is probably not a very objective judge of that situation with the Muslim speaker.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    im not sure who Rick Mathes is, or if the story is even true.

    however, IF the facts are correct, it doesnt make any sense in trying to compare Christianity's past with radical Islam's present.

    Christians arent telling other Christians to murder non-believers. how can you compare the concept of heaven/hell with outright murder? seems a very strange kind of relativism.

    i read an article recently (cant seem to find it now) which outlined parts of the Koran that were pretty damning...and also some damning parts of the Christian bible which appeared to advocate violence/killing.

    regardless--Christians arent currently using those passages to justify murder. radical Islam is.

    Bob

  7. #7

    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    bwaites said: ...we are SUPPOSED to be advancing in that regard, not digressing.

    DO you think that "we" (humankind I assume you mean) are advancing? Are you thinking that babies born today are very different than babies born a 1000 years ago? (I don't) And...if they are not different, do you think society has enough influence on our development that "we" simply couldn't be like the men that went with Cortez? After all, Germany was/is a "Christian nation" and yet, less than 75 years ago there was no shortage of people from a "Christian nation" willing to do great evil.

    I do hope that we are advancing, but I see plenty of evidence that humans are much like they were 1000s of years ago; same basic stock. We are just as capable of good as any of Jesus' apostles and just as capable of evil as any of Genghis Khan's hordes. It is the choices we make personally that govern the outcome.

    That is why I am wary of painting any large group or society with too broad a brush as though they were all the same or their religion made them act mostly all the same.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    pedalinbob said: ...Christians arent telling other Christians to murder non-believers.

    Are you so confident of that?

    "We" use terms like "the fight on terror", but just underneath all the talk, is a sense (I believe) that "Christians" have a duty to fight Islam. President Bush (who says that God is guiding him in this fight) began the "war on terror" by describing it as a "Crusade".

    On this very forum, I saw a post saying something like "We should just Nuke'em and turn Iraq into a plain of smoking glass" (I'll try to find the post for you if you like). That sure seems to go way beyond "We need to find these terrorists and root them out" and into "We need to just wipe out this whole, broad class of people regardless as to whether they've ever lifted a finger against us or not".

    There's a nice insight to what some Christians think about the middle east in this report:

    Zion's Christian Soldiers

    In the piece, it says "[Jerry] Falwell believes most Muslims want to live in peace but, he says, the lines have been drawn. Christians and Jews are on one side, Muslims on the other and, he says, those lines were drawn more than a thousand years ago."

    I'm all for rooting out terrorists. But I don't agree with treating whole societies broadly for the actions of a few.

    And...I'm sorry, I do not believe any more than some tiny minority of Muslims believe that they should either convert or kill unbelievers... any more than that person on this forum represents most of us when they posted "just nuke'em".

    BTW...do you know much about the Crusades? When "Christian Knights" gathered up their war gear and went off to another land with the express purpose of "making war" on Muslim countries (our nice way of saying...kill Muslims) . I can assure you, the church was fully in accord with that. I found it highly disappointing that our President described our very necessary need to fight terror as a "crusade". The people of the middle east know what the crusades were all about.

    It seems like the "advancement" we are making is more about the words we use.

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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    I'm afraid we have the"nuke em all" Christians in my neck of the woods too. The message of peace must go to everybody.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* pedalinbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    you make some good points, and i think there is a big difference between talking, thinking and doing.

    Falwell may make statements, but he is not (as far as i know) bombing civilians in coffeehouses in the name of Christianity.

    i also think it is a bit of a stretch to assume "but just underneath all the talk, is a sense (I believe) that "Christians" have a duty to fight Islam.".

    i see this as nuance versus outright statement.
    it is no secret that Bush is a Christian (which should NOT automatically make him "guilty" of hating muslims), but he has stated repeatedly that he has no issue with Islam/muslims...but i suppose that one could infer/interpret/nuance/assume that Bush/Christians have a beef with muslims.
    radical Islam has clearly stated they have a beef with the infidels--and they bluntly murder in the name of Islam.

    "crusade" probably was not the best term to use...but Bush is not known for his linguistic, uh, adeptness. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    but i understand your points--especially this one: "I'm all for rooting out terrorists. But I don't agree with treating whole societies broadly for the actions of a few."

    i certainly agree that Christians arent perfect, and most muslims are not evil.
    i was only pointing out that to see widespread murder of civilians sanctioned by Christians, you need to crack a history book. to see murder in the name of radical Islam, you only need to watch the 6:00 news.

    Bob

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    *Flashaholic* PlayboyJoeShmoe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    >>>All deleted<<<

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif[/img] I said I wouldn't do this!

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif[/img]

  12. #12

    Default Re: Islamic Beliefs and Rick Mathes

    It's a chain letter, and a piece of fluff that has already caused turmoil on other boards. Why bring it here? A simple Google search on Rick Mathes is enough to show what it does to forums, and that it isn't worthy of consideration. Reason isn't championed by "let's make believe this happened" scenarios. I don't see anything positive in making CPF a vehicle for promoting chain letters.

    Come on, Guys. I think it's already been mentioned that we were trying for a week without these train-wreck political/war/religious discussions. It hasn't been a week yet.

    Thread closed. Break the chain.

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