How to get good drinking water?

We have really hard water in our area and we've been buying 1 gallon jugs for the last 4 years for our drinking water. Water delivery is hassle and cost a pretty penny. I'm now thinking of buying 3-5 gallons of water in those big containers myself for a dollar or so....
My question is can anyone recommend a counter top cold water dispenser? Does not need to have a hot water dispenser. Truthfully, I don't even need it to be chilled, but if I can find one that is inexpensive to buy and operate, then I'll go chilled(I hate warm water).

EDIT: I changed the title since it has changed from looking for a simple cold water dispenser (water cooler) into how to achieve the best drinking water from tap.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Buy a reverse osmosis purifier. It will take everything out of the water. Just put some bottles in the fridge to keep them cold. You can also make a home-made solar distiller:

http://www.txses.org/epsea/stills.html

It seems to me that you can do this for quite a bit less than the $200 that article mentions (plywood box, painted black on the inside and lined with clear food grade plastic film, sheet of glass on top, etc).

Here's another how-to article:

http://www.justpeace.org/nuggets12.htm#BUILD%20YOUR%20OWN%20WATER%20DISTILLER

You can also buy an electric distiller but I'd consider that to be environmentally unfriendly because of the amount of energy it uses. It will also be relatively expensive to run because of the electricity costs.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I installed a dual filter under my kitchen sink that has it's own spout next to the main kitchen faucet. I got it at a Home Center, I think it was by GE. Very nice and more practical than buying jugs. The reverse osmosis units are more money, but just as convenient and even better filtration. I have been happy with my set-up.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

paulr - Thanks for the information, but I think that may take some daily work (filling) for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif
I actually seen something similar as a survival tool.
"8. WTR-2000-00, Solar Still: A solar still is an inflatable which utilizes solar energy to distill salt water. Salt water is fed to the solar connector where it evaporates, water vapor condenses on the inside of the clear cone of the solar still, runs down into the collecting gutter and into the collecting bag. A solar still can yield as much as 3 pints per day of pure water, under ideal conditions."

Lurker - I looked into that GE filter system too. I know its not the same, but our refrigerator has a built in filter, but I find that it doesn't do that well of a job. I'd have to assume that a larger/dual filter system should be a lot better! How's your water taste? Was installation hard?

Thanks!

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I'd think filtration can't take dissolved solids out of the water, or else you could desalinate water with filters. You need reverse osmosis for that. Note that RO wastes a considerable amount of water, i.e. for every gallon purified, another 5 gallons or so goes down the drain. Maybe you can recapture and use the waste water somehow, if you're purifying more than the amount for just drinking.

You could get a water softener, which works by adding more minerals, but it makes the water taste better by adjusting the ionic balance or something like that.

I wonder how complicated it would be to fill the distiller automatically or semi-automatically, i.e. run a hose to it from the normal water tap, and once a day simply turn on the hose to flush out the old water and add new water.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
I wonder how complicated it would be to fill the distiller automatically or semi-automatically, i.e. run a hose to it from the normal water tap, and once a day simply turn on the hose to flush out the old water and add new water.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know regular flushing is needed, but I still see mineral build up. Great idea, just wish I can hide it somewhere in the backyard. Then be able to fill and clean it easy, hmmm.

RO units are somewhat large, no space in the garage /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif, I'm hoping to either get the double filter system or simply continue buying bottled water.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I have just installed two of the GE activated charcoal systems... A 1 filter and a two filter system. Also had a reverse osmosis system for years... We have very good quality city water to begin with, but I have been worried about the change to the chloramines (sp?) system (lead leaching, ammonia).

The one filter system works fine and has good water flow. Replace filter(s) every 6 months (assuming 4-5 gallons per day--per instructions).

The two filter system I got is just the same as the one filter, but with two canisters in series. Water flow is not as good (perhaps 1/2 the rate as the one filter system). Got this one for my house with two young kids. Works fine to fill glasses at the sink (my wife uses a Brea (sp?) charcoal pitcher to keep cold water in the fridge).

The osmosis system was from about ten years ago--newer systems may be better. Still had to replace filters (a pre-filter and a post charcoal filter) and had problems with the O-Rings leaking (used filter cartridges in large diameter filter holders). Also had problems with noise and excessive bypass water use. My wife eventually got worried about mold and bacteria growth in the osmosis system (you are supposed to flush with bleach every so often). Also, after several years of use, the 2-3 gallon storage tank lost its air charge and would need to be refilled (tank has air bladder inside to accumulate water as reverses osmosis systems are generally not able to produce enough water flow for a point of use filling of a glass of water).

I liked the GE system because the entire filter cartridge and case is replicable (with new O-Rings) and seems like it has less chances of leaks developing. There is an upgrade filter that, I believe, can be used in the base two filter system, if you want (slightly?) better filtering. Very easy to install (The GE activated charcoal system included a cold water feed manifold installed between shutoff valve and water line to your sink tap... Small overall size).

The Reverse Osmosis system worked OK too (water tasted fine and storage tank usually provided good flow and volume--if kept charged with air). I did not like the noise (buzzing water hammer noise as system was deciding to turn off or on to fill the storage tank), the leaks from the large O-Rings/Cartridge seals, the need to flush with bleach (in theory, no taste problem as final carbon filter should catch), issue of bacteria/mold growth, problems with by-pass water line to sink drain clogging, and just an overall larger amount of maintenance required. Also, the ROS filter/valves are usually larger, and you have to find room to put a ~three gallon metal tank under your sink. And you still have (usually two) filters to replace. The ROS system, and probably many others, required you to install a "vampire" water tap on the cold water line (some may require you to drill a small hole too).

I guess, in the end, if you have good city water (not too hard) and the charcoal units give you good taste--I would try the simple system first. Also, the GE unit supplied a manifold that is easier to install (and remove)--very nice if you don't have room for a vampire tap on your cold water pipe (you should be able to use the GE manifold to connect to a ROS unit too--if you choose to install one later).

If you have hard water, lots of dissolved organics/nitrites, salts, heavy sulfur or fluoride tastes, etc., you probably need ROS to get the water quality you want. Also, if you are using a well, you may need more (like a UV sterilizer) to make the water safer--However, you would probably need to talk with a professional about this--Most store bought water purification systems (that I have seen) state very clearly that they should only be used on water supplies of known safety and quality. You will also have to install the by-pass drain, typically, by drilling a hole in your sink waste drain pipe and install a clamp (and will probably need to clean the plastic drain tube every so often). Also, if you install a ROS system, try to place the water spout in a place where leaking water will drain directly into the sink (or a leak won't cause damage)--because you can get a clog in the by-pass water drain line and the ROS water spout is where the water will leak from (vacuum break is usually in the base of the water spout).

-Bill

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Here is a link to how a water softener works:

[ QUOTE ]
...The idea behind a water softener is simple. The calcium and magnesium ions in the water are replaced with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard water are eliminated. To do the ion replacement, the water in the house runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads or zeolite are covered with sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads or zeolite contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads or zeolite.

Regeneration involves soaking the beads or zeolite in a stream of sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a very strong brine solution and flushes it through the zeolite or beads (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the zeolite or beads and replaces it again with sodium. The remaining brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a drain pipe. Regeneration can create a lot of salty water, by the way -- something like 25 gallons. (95 liters)...

[/ QUOTE ]

At the bottom of the link above, there is a link to Culligan and they offer free water tests and recommendations... May be worth a shot to see what they would recommend. Don't know anything about them other than they are a big company (and probably expensive). But free to ask.

-Bill

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Thanks BB. I'm actually in the dialysis field which pretty much goes hand in hand with RO/Softener systems. RO's are great, but high maintenance, higher cost and lack of space makes it a poor option for me...
I'm really leaning towards the dual filter system now....

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I wasn't aware of the RO systems being that cumbersome. I've never owned one but the ones I've seen looked pretty straightforward.

I don't think filtration will do the job. Softeners do help with the taste.

I guess if the water is just for drinking, buying RO-purified water at 20 cents a gallon is probably bearable cost-wise.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Well Darkcobra--you practically have a doctorate in ROS systems... Don't I feel silly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif .

One comment about the refrigerator filter system... My in-laws have a refer with an inline filter (the 10 year old plastic filter case sprung a very fine leak while they were on a several month vacation--but that is mess that we don't have to go into here). Their water quality is very good without any filters. However, I cannot stand the taste of the water/ice that comes out of their fridge. I don't know if it mold/scum build up in the little water/ice maker, or if it is just all of the plastic and fittings in the refrigerator (and the gas-permeable (i.e., odor) nature of plastic).

The price differences between a dual GE filter (at ~$75-$100 for a dual filter system, as I recall) vs the $200-$300 cheap RO systems (Costco sometimes has them)... The price is probably not a huge difference (filter replacement costs are probably roughly the same).

I am not sure if you are in an apartment or what--but if I had an easy way to do it, I would consider installing the ROS in the back yard and run the supply/clean water pipes to it. You could run the by-pass water to your garden and any leaks/maintenance would be a heck of a lot easier. Place it in a box to prevent the occasional soft freezes we have.

Any-ways... what I was trying to say is don't go by the refrigerator taste test...

-Bill

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

[ QUOTE ]
BB said:
Well Darkcobra--you practically have a doctorate in ROS systems... Don't I feel silly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif .

[/ QUOTE ]
Not by a longshot! hehehe All I know is that our techs are constantly being called out to fix leaks, bad sensors, changing membranes, rebedding carbon tank, etc, etc. I didn't want those same problems/hassles at home. I think the easiest/inexpensive thing for me to do is to just buy RO water from the machines or stores. I think I may also do the dual filter for cooking?
Thanks guys...

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Darkcobra, I would like to answer your question of my GE system, but it looks like BB covered everything already.

My water tase is very good. It wasn't bad to begin with, being on city water, but the improvement is noticeable, and I don't even have the most premium filter set installed. I don't know how bad your water is, so I can't say if you will have good results or not.

The installation was a bit of a project, but if you have ever done any minor plubing repairs, it should be very manageable.

One suggestion I could make is that as a test you could buy one of the PUR brand filters that mount directly on the end of the faucet. We used those for years and I would say the filtration quality is probably at an equivalent level. You won't get the same high flow rate with the PUR and you have to change filters more often, which gets expensive, but it would be a good test for $30 to see if filtration will give satisfactory results. You also save the hassle of a complex installation if you decide against it. They are widely available at Walmart and hardware stores. This is also a good option if you rent your home and is still a lot better than buying jugs.

Good luck.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

Lurker - I wish I can do that PUR filter addition, but I have a fancy faucet that won't allow me to go that route.

As a project, I may just do the dual filter system for at least cooking needs.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I tried the Pur filter on city tap water. It helped the taste only slightly, and it clogged after a few weeks. I called Pur's 800 number and they said oh yes, they clog like that when the water bad. They sent me a couple of free replacements but I decided it wasn't worth messing with, so I gave the stuff away. I'm disappointed to hear that RO is such a hassle to deal with. I'd been figuring to install an RO system sooner or later.

A little Googling found some pretty good sites:

http://www.pwgazette.com

http://www.h2ofilter.net

with filtration and RO stuff.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

We have TERRIBLE water out here. Very very hard water and slightly chlorinated. Hard enough that we always buy an extended warranty on our water heater because they only last 5-10 years tops out here. I've seen 3 or 4 go into this house and we've only been here 17 years!

We can get RO out of machines here for about 39¢/gallon or for 40¢/gallon we can get steam distilled--which is what we do. Use it for drinking. Keep a tray or 2 of ice cubes in the fridge, made from the distilled water, for when we want cold water.

Sure the steam distilled is a touch more expensive, but it's coming from a specialized health + water store instead of a machine in a grocery store. Maybe I'm just comforting myself, but I tend to think that the owner of the water store, who has invested quite a bit in the distiller equipment, is going to take better care of it than the grocery store people that probably don't know or care thing 1 about the RO machine. How often do you think the RO machines at the store are flushed with bleach /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

The idea of RO is to get minerals and stuff out of the water. Afterwards, I'd still filter it to get rid of bacteria.

Steam distillation is incredibly energy inefficient, and doesn't remove volatile chemicals like chlorine, so again, filtration is still needed.

There's a water store near my old place that sells RO water for 20 cents a gallon and I have the impression that their stuff is maintained pretty well, but I never looked into it or tested the water. Unfortunately where I am now, I can only get commercial bottled water at $1+ per gallon. But the tap water here isn't as bad as at the old place, so I just drink it after letting it sit in a bottle for a few hours to let the chlorine escape.

I think the solar distillers are really a neat idea and it would great to set one up with a hose feed and an aquarium pump, to operate pretty much automatically (the pump brings the output water back into the house). But they're only feasible in places where you have enough space for them, enough sunlight, and warm enough weather year-round that the water doesn't freeze.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
I tried the Pur filter on city tap water. It helped the taste only slightly, and it clogged after a few weeks. I called Pur's 800 number and they said oh yes, they clog like that when the water bad. They sent me a couple of free replacements but I decided it wasn't worth messing with, so I gave the stuff away. I'm disappointed to hear that RO is such a hassle to deal with. I'd been figuring to install an RO system sooner or later.

A little Googling found some pretty good sites:

http://www.pwgazette.com

http://www.h2ofilter.net

with filtration and RO stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then again, my experience with RO machines are with ones that operate on a daily basis,12 hours a day. Home RO's would come no where near that amount of use and would probably need less maintenance?

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

We have insanly hard and toxic water out here as well. Ug.

I have an under-sink RO unit for the main sink. We make ice (the auto ice-maker is fed from the RO directly), coffee, drinking water, margaritas, etc out of the good water. The entire house is fed by a water-softener to preserve the appliances and make clothes and people-washing so much nicer.

The RO unit takes up little room under ths sink, and while VERY expensive, I think it was worth it. Hi volume, 10 gallons of filtered water capacity in the pressure tank.

The softener on the other hand is almost as large as our waterheater.

Re: Cold Water Dispenser

I've taken showers at relatives house who had a water softener. It felt like I couldn't wash off the body soap and the shampoo lathered like crazy... Nice, but unfortunately, the junk and 2 cars in the garage prohibits a "refrigerator size" softener to be added into the garage.
I went to the water store (yeah, water is so bad here that there is actually a water store that sells bulk RO drinking water and containers). Not a bad deal, if I bought a large 5 gallon holding container(to fill refrigerator container) and a 2 or 3 gallon refrigerator container that has a spout. It will only dent the wallet about $25 for the containers and 30 cents per gallon. The owner let me take a drink of water and it tasted good (no taste). If I can't find a more convenient, "cheaper" alternative, I'll be buying RO water. The owner also game me a lesson on water processing and how his water is exposed to UV lights to kill bacteria (I think?) and how his system is maintained well and kept clean. The store is near the grocery we frequent on a weekly basis. Buy groceries, buy water.
I'm still thinking of a dual water filter for our other water needs like cooking.