Phoenix update 8-11

In light of Ginseng's current situation.
The Aurora thread is at present unofficially closed. Ginseng said we should move on.

I suggested it and recieved a second. If it flies here then it's agreed.
Aurora like info and mod's can be posted here. For discussion and use by all those interested.

As I see it the goals are simple and few.
1. Develop a system based on the 3D cell form that will out shine the sun. Turn night to noon. Dazzel....eh sorry got carried away.

Like I started out.
1. Mag-Lite 3D cell based flashlight.
2. Minimum output 1000 lumens & max run time per charge.
3. Maximum output incandecent technology will permit. While maintaining a minimum 5 min. run per charge.
4. Rechargeable battery pack.
5. Unmodified appearance to the casual observer.

I will contribute my hobby machine shop and capabilities, time permiting.

Who else is interested, and willing to join in?
There has been alot of "we coulds" & "I shoulds" in the last week or so.
What can you add to this joint membership venture?

Theepdinker

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Sorry - I have no expertise to offer, but I am interested in seeing the "finished" article /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have a Tiger85 (courtesy of js /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif) which puts out around 800 lumens, so I would really want something a lot more powerful than 1000 lumens /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Something more like 3000 lumens perhaps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

I won't recommend setting a "maintaining 5min run per charge" goal. We should at least have 15 mins of runtime. Firstly for the life of the batteries, secondly, going by incandescent technology, if it's dead in 5 mins, it's yellow by 3.5 - 4 mins. And I sure won't want a light that takes an hour to charge, and runs for a mere 5 mins.

What can I add to this joint membership venture? Time spent researching on battery technology. Being stupidly critical of minor details. Being a beta tester! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

I can't offer any expertice (unless you want a biologically engineered supermouse running the thing.....), but I can say for certain that I will pony up the bucks to purchase a turn-key of this ultra-high-output, short-run-time light when the time comes.

That's a promise.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Allen
aka DumboRAT

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Pyscomondo, 1000 is a minimum, and we have 2k,3, and 4k bulbs identified.

Nerd, Again a minimum. If you want to AMAZE your friends or some know it all smart gluteus maximus go for just long enough burn to accomplish the job and no more. If that proves to harsh on the batteries we adapt. Burn time is controled by choice of bulb. We should be able to switch bulbs or a prepped bulb/reflector assembly. Allowing a reasonably easy change to brightness and burn time.
Your offer to the project is noted and accepted.
Are you done yet. Where's the battery pack. We got people drooling over this ya know.
Talk to DumboRat says he has a idea for perpetual energy module. He has bucks too!

DumboRat, When we can deliver, we'll let you.

Theepdinker

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Well like I said in the "continuation of Wilkey's project" thread:

Well we know that the KAN 4/5A cells gave enough current to run the 4k lm bulb. But they don't have the runtime that we are looking for. Does any manufacturer make some really nice A or 4/3A cells? If so, we can wire them up in the original configuration of 3 columns of 4 cells in series to achieve 14.4V to power the LVR3I.

The original 4/5A pack was 6.8" long and fit in a 3D body. An A pack would be 7.9" long and should fit in a 4D with runtime, then a 4/3A pack would be 10.6" long and might fit in a 5D.

A cells would have to need a bored out Mag body, so I don't know if it will be more economical to use the stock body or just make a brand new one from scratch.

Would Oto's Magdaddy head not be big enough? Cuz I'm down for a 4" reflector if he can make one. It will look more in proportion with the 4D body anyway.

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

. . . a 4" reflector? Wow. That's a Mag Granddaddy!

I agree -- that would look great on a 4D. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Paul

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Yeah. A 100W 3000+lm light WITH throw. How good can that get? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think most of the parts of light are covered. The thing we need to figure out is the power supply. What we need are A batteries that can pump out 8A with no problem. KAN 4/5A's work but they don't have enough mah.

How does the bulb mount in the light? Are the Osram HLX ##### bulbs able to plug in the original sockets?

100W is gonna create a LOT of heat so we might need Wilkey's Mag Heat Shield thing.

The deep thinker, will your machine shop be able to bore out Mag bodies?

We still need Wilkey's advice on a lot of stuff. Like how the threads remain intact after it has been bored out. We also need to know how the bulb mounts and how to wrap the battery with tape.

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Ninja, believe me, there's more to building the pack than wrapping a bunch of cells in tape. With the right socket, there is no need for the MagCharger heat shields.

I will not have the time to participate but I will be able to consult. It sounds as if the most help is needed in making sense of the bulb and battery options. I will try to condense what I have learned into a small series of tables so all you guys have to worry about is picking the cells, bulbs and getting the machining done.

Also, you'll want the option to go as low as 1,000 lumens. If you want a cheap reliable torch that makes that day in and day out, then a modded MagCharger or 3D running the WA01185 is all you'll need.

Note: You should be able to use the switch and socket that I used in Aurora as is. Those details are in the main Aurora threads. At least, those will be starting points.

Wilkey

Battery Information

Here is some information for you guys.

Batteries are broken down into two general size catagories, small (AAA, AA and A whole and fractional sizes) and large (sub-C, C, D, F and M whole and fractional sizes). If you assume a Mag 3D body will be the vessel, then the maximum small cell loading is 12 x 4/5A in a triple four-column arrangement. The maximum large cell loading is 6x4/5 sub-C, 4x sub-C, 4xC, 5x1/2D, 3xD or 2xF all in single stacks. You should also plan on using nimh cells instead of nicad due to the higher power density.

The Sanyo Industrial high current nickel metal hydride cells should be considered the standard against which all your battery choices are measured. The sole exception being the Gold Peak 3.3Ah nimh sub-C cell which is superior to Sanyo's sub-C offerings.

The cells likely to be of most interest to you are:
1. Sanyo HR-4/5AUP: 1.7Ah, 20+ amp capable
Other cells in this class which can be considered essentially identical for the purposes of a project such as this are: KAN1800, CBP1800

2. Sanyo HR-4AU: 2.7Ah, 4.5A capable.
This is a larger cell that will provide a nice bump up in capacity but at the expense of voltage delivery under load. While not recommended for driving 100W bulbs, it should work reasonably well for 35-50W LOLA options. You can triple stack but only 3-columns in a 3D. You'd have to go to a 4D to get a twelve-cell pack of triple 4-columns.
Other cells in this class are: CBP2100, a true 20A+ cell

3. Sanyo HR-4/3FAUP: 3.2Ah, 30A capable.
This is a very promising cell except for two things. Fat-A cells will not fit into even a dangerously overbored D body and it is in test but not yet commercially available. There are several other flavors of A and 4/3A cells but none are true high current capable delivering only up to about 4 amps. For example, HR-4/3AU, 4/3AUX, 4/3FAU, 4/3FAUX

So, what's the bottom line? If you want to pack the maximum punch for a 12V bulb in a 3D body, there is only one option in nimh cells: the 4/5A form factor. Not coincidentally, this is the cell I chose for the Aurora.

Alternatively, if one were anxious to get this project completed and were only interested in the stealth configuration (stock Mag D head with a metal reflector) then there is the option to go to high-current AA cells. This would not require that the body tube be bored out but would require some finesse in switch placement due to the greater length of the AA versus 4/5A cells. Cells to consider for this option would be the KAN1300 and CBP1400 for 15A capability. Naturally, runtime would be further reduced.

I did not address the large cell options because they are all single-stacking and thus require a long body. These larger cells (such as the AeroNIMH 3.5Ah and 4.0Ah 1/2D) provide far higher voltage under load and well over double the capacity of 4/5A cells. An ideal combination for a larger lamp would be 10 x 1/2D 4Ah cells in a 6-D body providing nearly 30 minutes of HOLA 100W runtime.

I hope this post has been helpful.

Wilkey

Re: Battery Information

ginseng are them sanyo2300 aa any good.i use them in camera but thought about makeing something with them. there marked energizer

Re: Battery Information

30 minutes! Wow. I'm down for that. Not having to bore out the barrel will be a LOT easier. A Mag 6D is 19.5"long. With a Magdaddy, it might be like 20.5" or something. That's not THAT bad. Also, 10 1/2D cells will be 0.73" shorter than 6 D cells. Regulator!!!

And since I can make it into two 5-cell packs, my 4-8 cell charger will be able to charge it! I won't need to spend $50 on a 10 cell charger/power supply.

We still need to find out how to mount the bulb on the light and probably how to install the switch. That shouldn't be that hard.

I messaged Oto seeing if he can possibly turn out a 4" head /w Carley reflector and UCL.

Also, do you guys know of any place that can HA3 it?

Hopefully, at the end, it will be something like this:

6D maglite: $25
4" Big *** head: $140
Switch and wires: $5
UCL: $5
Carley: $20
10 1/2D cells $50
Bulb: $10

That's like $255. Not bad! And since we can make these ourselves, it's cheaper than the Aurora TK! I'd even pay $50 for some place to strip the 6D anodizing and HA3 the entire thing. That'd be soooo tight. $300 will get you an HA3 4000 lumen 1/2mile throw spotlight under 3 pounds. You can get the normal 6D "sleeper" for like $120! Bad A!

Re: Battery Information

Rag,

The Sanyo/Energizer 2300 are fine for anything less than 2-2.5A. Above that, they don't hold voltage as well as the 2100s.

Wilkey

Re: Battery Information

FNinjaP90,
Sounds like you're hot (wired) for the 6cell option. Go for it. We'll continue to work on the 3cell here. If you'd like to work on the power pack contact Nerd. Working together maybe you guys can dig up something that has been missed. We'll need size,Mah,acceptable charge/discharge rates and anything else important you come up with.

Yes, I can handle the machine work. My offer to help is what got me started on this.
It is less expensive to work with a mag body than start from scratch. I still have work to do on my end. I better get to it.

If anyone has their heart set on a larger than factory head/reflector, step up to accept the duty of gathering the info on it.

Theepdinker

Re: Battery Information

I'd love the 3 cell version, but the 6D will be cheaper for me. I won't need to pay anybody to bore it out, and I won't have to get a seperate charger.

The thing is, due to the current state of battery technology, it's impossible to fit more than 1800mah worth of 12V cells in there. 9mins runtime with 100W is simply not long enough for me. 22mins suits me better.

But I will do whatever I can for you guys. I'll try to get some more info together tomorrow.

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

For now, a quick fix would be this

Get 2 packs of the "6 cell KAN 1050 - Double Stick" for a 12 cell 15 amp draw pack. I'm looking into A batteries instead though. More capacity and runtime and of cos, can be pushed really hard (30amps)

Finding a place to stick 10 or 12 pieces of A batteries, now that's another matter! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

I don't think anyone can comfortably hold a torch with 4 123s stacked diameter. That's the biggest problem! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

I can though, but it's no use trying to make a photon cannon only I can use comfortably. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smoker5.gif

Soon........................ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Nerd,
4/5A 1800mah looks to be their best offering in 4/5's.

In full size A's the CBP 2100 is a winner. Putting 10 to 12 of them into a 3cell might not leave room enough to attach the tail cap or install a switch. Maybe leave the switch cover in place & configure a head twist switch. Another option is shorten a 4cell body. It would be slightly longer the a 3cell but still look like one.

The CBPAA1800 would have the same length issue, but no boring needed. They're rated at 10 amps.

Lots to think about.

Theepdinker

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Wow, you all are thinking big. I was just thinking a 50 watt osram decostar IRC in a 3D body. Should be do-able no problem. I actually stuffed 12AA's in a 2D body one time (had to remove all the internals and use an extra switch in the tail cap) along with a 20 watt light. Unfortunately, I ended up frying the cells because they scraped the sides and shorted (I didn't have a way to bore it out any).

With the 50 watt decostar IRC several problems would be fixed. You could use the stock head, replace the lens with a high temp glass one, it would look completely stock (you can use the same switch), it'd be smaller, lighter. Sure, it'd only have a 20 minute run time, but it would use common AA's. We could make a 12AA to 3D converter for less than $20, we could use our common 1 hour AA chargers, etc.

50 watt IRC would be...hmmm about 1500 lumens. An article I read on the decostar IRC says the process increases the efficiency to 24 lumens per watt. That would be 1200. We would probably be running it slightly over 12 volts. Some of the high capacity AA's should be able to EASILY do 1 volt when under a 2C load, and probably better than that. I would say a goal should be 13V under load, that would push you WELL over 1500 lumens. Does anybody have some discharge graphs for the newer 2000+ MAH batteries? I'd like to find what discharge rate would give 1.1 volts per cell. The problem is the 50W IRC is only available in 10 degree reflector at the narrowest. This is where my dream project diverges from your project. Mine would be AFFORDABLE to me (I don't have much money at all, and mine should cost less than $75 or so, $20 for mag, $20 for batteries (or less), $10 for bulb, and MAYBE $20 for the battery holder if we had to hire someone to do it). Unfortunately, I can't do mine on my own, I have no way of making a 12AA to 3D pack that lets me take the batts out since I do not have access to a machine shop.

I'll keep checking on this thread in case you all DO decide to go with compact and cheap instead of a 5D monster ;-)

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

Tater Rocket,
Might get in trouble running 4+ amps through the stock switch.
Theepdinker

Re: Launch of the Phoenix

You shouldn't. They are supposedly tested to 10 amps, and I don't think that 4 should be a problem. However, others might have some hands on experience with it, but from what I remember, 4 amps should be fine. Then again, it has been a while, so maybe it was only good to 2 or 3 amps.