How do you feel about flashlight clones?

Hello everyone. I've been reading through a few threads about Inova, CMG/Gerber clones and I began to wonder, how do most flashaholics on CPF feel about flashlight clones/knockoffs? Do you buy them? Do you dislike the fact that factories producing these lights are ripping off another manufacturer's product? Do you even care?

I for one, will not buy a cheap knockoff of another flashlight manufacturer's product no matter how well made it is, but I know there will always be people who will buy them.

Since everyone's opinions differ, PLEASE let's keep it civil and respect each others' points of view.

I'm not into cheap copies for a variety of reasons. Can't say I ever bought one.

I dont perticularly like them either.
Yea, I have bought a few, but just for the heck of it really.

My main beef with them, is that they make the REAL lights that they copy look bad.
Some ppl wont know the difference, or, will say, hey, why buy the real thing, when I can buy this cheapo? looks the same to me...

Well, there is a difference, one that only use REAL light lovers know I suppose. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The cheaper clones doesn't really match up with the real ones in terms of quality and brightness. I do buy some just to see how good or for comparison purposes.
I also mod some of them as they are cheap enough and some of them do make a good host.

I'll buy quality and reputation every time. A cheap knockoff is no bargain.

Quality is long remebered after Price is forgotten....

It very much depends.

I am VERY MUCH AGAINST an EXACT CLONE of an existing product. Example, I would not buy an EXACT CLONE of an ARC AAA light.

However, I would buy a similar product, if it offered a benefit. If it was a superior product, or a cheaper product, like the dorcy AAA. No WAY does it compare to the ARC, but for 5.98 at Wal-mart, it makes a nice gift.

The Inova clone, is an example of a "close clone" that I did buy.

It is NOT a clone of the Inova, as it takes a single AA 1.5 volt battery. instead of 2 123a 3 volt batteries, but both have 5 nichia lights.

I have and actually like, the Xova clone. It is great for keeping by the TV. It is cheap, it looks nice, it is NOT as bright as the Inova, but I can use ONE AA battery, I can use a rechargable battery to boot.

The Xova kinda looks like the Inova, but is very different, and it is just fine for seeing in the dark while sitting in my easy chair, watching tv. That is about all it is good for too!

So it meets my needs, it was inexpensive, and I am happy.

Now, the question is, would I buy a SureFire M3 clone, that met or exceded the SureFire M3 Spec's, and got some good reviews here on CPF, and cost 2/3 less?

Probably,

When something is a flat-out visual knockoff of someone else's product (e.g. the Chinese Inova and CMG clones posted about lately), that's tacky. But lots of times some product appears that fills a void, and it's successful, and then other people make similar products that do pretty much the same thing but don't look exactly the same. As long as nobody will confuse the manufacturers, this is healthy competition and it's a good thing.

An example is tiny LED lights running on lithium coin cells. LRI (Photon) was the first company to market those lights widely and they were great, but very expensive (my first Photon II's were around $20 each). Nowadays, Countycomm has some very nice slide switch keychain lights for $1.00 each that do pretty much the same thing. Yeah, they are copied from Photon in a sense, but users benefit tremendously from the competition.

Also, those lights really took off when some user/modder on the Photon discussion board discovered that you could run the LED on two 2016 cells and get very bright output while still keeping runtime reasonable and not burn out the led. Prior to that, Photons used one 2032 cell and were quite dim, but Photon itself quickly switched over to 2x2016 for white leds after that modder's discovery, and now everybody makes their lights that way. So, imitation is natural and beneficial to users in general, even if some particular company (e.g. Photon) might have liked it better to be able to keep that whole market to itself.

The government offers some limited exemptions from the competitive free market (i.e. patents) in specific cases of actual nonobvious technical innovation, in order to provide an incentive for new development, but these are supposed to be temporary and narrow in scope (that system has unfortunately gotten abused and screwed up in practice, see Mag hassling Arc for example). Ultimately, nobody is forced to develop products and if someone feels they can't make a profit from their product in a competitive environment, they are free to do something else instead.

I am positevly undecided. I honestly think some of the BIG name lights are way over priced, however some that you might consider clones are crap while others might be good deals. This is one choice that is tough to make. No wonder people view it in different ways. I will not take a side on this one and I really do respect both views.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm against them, when they're a direct threat to the manufactirer in question. In some cases though they have their uses. For instance, I've got a 5D Mag-clone here, cost $10, nothing compared to a real one, but a great mod-base.

Why would anyone clone a Mag? Mag would probably sue them for using the same kind of metal. Seriously though I think the clones are usually junk. I remember getting an X5 clone sample in the mail (unsolicited) and having to laugh my head off at how cheap it was. I steer clear of them.

I don't consider the Inova X5 and CMG/Gerber Infinity to be expensive, but then a non-flashaholic may think otherwise. Still, the cheap Xnova knockoffs and all the CMG/Gerber wannabes are not in the same league as the originals. Maybe they shouldn't be, but why copy their designs? Why not show a bit of originality and have a feature the others don't?

I don't mind seeing a variety of lights in the same class as long as they don't look like a copy. I consider lights like the Inova X5/Nightcutter 5P and Arc LS/LongBow Micra to be in the same class. They both may have similar features but are not identical in appearance.

There is a difference between a clone and a light that happens to look similar.

Flashlights tend to end up in a tube and in some cases the end result is really determined by the ergonomics and the parts. There are only a few ways to build a tube based flashlight using 3 D cells and a 2 inch reflector. Due to the balance in the hand, there's only a few logical places to put the on-off switch. You have to put the batteries in, and it's logical to do so on the end. The reflector is bigger than the head, so some type of flared head would look better and protect the reflector.

If you follow the design above, you end up with something similar to a 3 D cell Maglight.

Now that I've made that point... Most of the chip makers include application notes that help buyers design things. It's no suprise when several manufacturers use the same parts the same way. It's not always copying teh competition, somethimes both are copying the manufacturer.

I don't buy "clones" per se. I have CR2016 and 2032 based led lights that are made by Inova and others. I've a red one that's at least 10 years old. Is it a Photon clone? probably not. If a product tries to duplicate someone else's I will avoid it. If it is simply similar due to design needs, I'll weigh the factors and go with that.

I won't buy Peak Led products because they said that they were using ARC propritary info. Many even look teh same. I will buy from Ledlenser even though there is not much difference between their products and Peaks.

I'll buy ARC AAA even though it is similar to the Mag Solitaire. The design dictated the form.

Daniel

I do not own any known clones as in exact duplicate.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've always liked to collect handheld lights since I was a 5 year old…44 years ago when my dad gave me his Big Beam with the 6 volt sealed beam headlight and the other kids in the neighborhood had only the popular magnetic Ray-O-Vacs.

So I collect flashlight with the common element of simply having a useable light beam and common to get or rechargeable batteries. So I don't mind getting a clone light if only to see the many differences between the two lights.

Clone lights might be pushing the lighting industry to make something better. How?

Competition stimulates creativity and price lowering and lack of competition stagnates the maturity of products and keeps prices artificially high. Clones generate competition.

Many PC Computers used to be called IBM PC "clones" and the clone competition has lowered price and raised the quality of computers. Color TVs are clones of clones with many TVs just branded a different name and cheaper price. There used to be Apple clones but Apple computer stifled all competition and created their own niche market for the elite and set their computer at an artificially high price. Now Apple put out a product at their price whenever they think you need a new product.

Companies have even cloned their own products to benefit themselves. My New Beetle is a clone of the old Beetle but far more refined. On the outside and some of the interior it reminds you of the old version but Volkswagen cloned their original shape to make a new model car. And that car inspired other car manufacturers to use retro ideas to make the retro cars. Look at the PT Cruiser, Viper (and the other Chrysler model I forgot the name of), the Thunderbird and the Crossfire.

Xnova lights look like Inova lights but only superficially. Other than the close shape of the light the size and electronics are different.

Streamlight JR might be a clone of the popular CPF mods of taking a Min*mag and putting a Luxeon with electronics in the light except Streamlight can do it cheaper. No one has complained to Streamlight about making a cheaper clone light.

Baglite have stagnated the light market because they sue anyone that has the "feel" of their patented light but sits on ancient laurels of old products and refused to progress any light into the future. The reasons they lowered the price of their lights over the years was to gain market share and make them a household name by having a Baglite in every house. The Min*mag was their last innovation…waaaaaay back in 1984. I'm really surprised Baglite has not sued other companies for the use of the same materials they use.

It isn't up to us to decide if the clones are worthy of our money as it is more up to the companies to try to make their products or clone products with enough creativity to get the public to open their wallet.

Clone lights we see for sale might be stimulating the light industry for better, cheaper and more innovative products.

Only Greenspan knows for sure. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Haveblue, very interesting thoughts. I agree that the new Streamlight Jr Luxeon is very similar to alot of the Mini-Mag mods out there, but I wouldn't call it an exact clone.
Not everyone has the technical know how or the time and resources to modify lights, so Streamlight came out with an affordable 2AA Luxeon light with a tailcap switch that can be commercially bought.

As far as other companies go, I think manufacturers like Arc, Surefire and others are looking to take the flashlight industry into the future by innovation and original designs, not by stealing other makers' designs to sell cheap inferior products.

I think if a product can only imitate, but doesn't improve on a design than its a clone that I wouldn't want to buy.

They are another "tool" for the drawer. Great for loaners, and gifts to non-flashaholics.

Generally speaking, I don't deal with clones on flashlights. Now, if a "clone" of something comes out and it is much better than the original... I would think about it.
For instance, I have three Arc AAAs (Standard, Premium and red LED) have no desire to get a Peak AAA single LED light. That being said, there is a twist to it. I have a Peak on order and it should be in next week.
The Peak I ordered was their "Hi-Power" 5 red LED brass AA flashlight. That light has no resemblence to any other flashlight that I have ever seen. Truly an original. My view on Peak is they are doing what Arc should of done, expand the single cell LED market.