Mr.BULK ,please read as well as all VIP owners....

coachbigdog

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If this is the wrong forum,please move it to correct one.I feel like I should say something about the VIPs being sold for so much more than you bought it for.1st,I believe that we should be fair in our pricing here at CPF.If you want to sell it for more than you paid, I think it should be done on EBAY.I know what some of you are thinking,"I can do whatever I want with it because I bought it!" and I agree with that.At the same time,what you are doing is DRIVING the costs of custom lights THRU THE ROOF! Let me explain.If you were MR.Bulk,or who ever, and you saw what people are paying,then the next time you make a new light,you are probably going to charge more.After all,why should some one else make MORE money of a light that YOU made! Not to mention I feel it's a slap in the face of people who custom make lights.Here they are sweating there butts of to make what we want.Then they want to also provide a service to CPF members,so they charge less than they should or feel they deserve.Then we go and take advantage of their hard work and resale the lights for a HUGE profit! I'm not here to upset ANYONE,I just know how I'd feel if by trying to help members out,I lowered my prices to provide them a service.Then find out the members I am serving are profitting off of me.If I'm MR.BULK, the next light I make,I would charge $400.After all, if people are willing to pay,then I might as well make the $ instead of my customers.Just my thoughts. Maybe MR.BULK can post how he feels about it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
 

this_is_nascar

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[ QUOTE ]
coachbigdog said:
If this is the wrong forum,please move it to correct one.I feel like I should say something about the VIPs being sold for so much more than you bought it for.1st,I believe that we should be fair in our pricing here at CPF.If you want to sell it for more than you paid, I think it should be done on EBAY.I know what some of you are thinking,"I can do whatever I want with it because I bought it!" and I agree with that.At the same time,what you are doing is DRIVING the costs of custom lights THRU THE ROOF! Let me explain.If you were MR.Bulk,or who ever, and you saw what people are paying,then the next time you make a new light,you are probably going to charge more.After all,why should some one else make MORE money of a light that YOU made! Not to mention I feel it's a slap in the face of people who custom make lights.Here they are sweating there butts of to make what we want.Then they want to also provide a service to CPF members,so they charge less than they should or feel they deserve.Then we go and take advantage of their hard work and resale the lights for a HUGE profit! I'm not here to upset ANYONE,I just know how I'd feel if by trying to help members out,I lowered my prices to provide them a service.Then find out the members I am serving are profitting off of me.If I'm MR.BULK, the next light I make,I would charge $400.After all, if people are willing to pay,then I might as well make the $ instead of my customers.Just my thoughts. Maybe MR.BULK can post how he feels about it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more with you. As one that buys-sells quite a bit here on CPF, I find it a bit disturbing that people are doing this with limited availablility items. I have no issue with making a profit to pay for your expenses and I do know about the law of supply and demand, however I find the rate-hike concerning. My fear is that in the future, the likes of the Mr. Bulks, McGizmo's, Jet22, etc will stop allowing multiple purchases from a single buyer becuase of acts like this.

Oh well, it always comes down to the mighty buck, doesn't it.
 

raggie33

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i was so bummed when i soldmy ragmag.cuase i know how much work he puts and careing he puts in his lights.
 

Justintoxicated

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Re: Mr.BULK ,please read as well as all VIP owners

I kinda agree, but we all know Mr Bulk makes lights for more than just money! If I was going to sell mine I would have to sell it for more, of course Mr Bulk knows my case is a little different since I have no job and am wanting his new light. Then again, I would feel bad for doing that myself...So I think I'm going to keep my VIP and keep applying for jobs..

I do not think most people are willing to pay $400 either, but there will always be someone who is.

Then again, the people on Ebay selling the VIP might not have known the bids would each $400 anyways.
 

Bullzeyebill

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This is sort of an editorial thread (I agree with Coachbigdog and this is nascar) and maybe belongs somewhere else, but where, maybe in "Custom and Mod"? It does pertain to Mr Bulks work, and results of his work, and most of the discussion re Mr Bulks lights are in the Custom and Mod section. Where ever, this is an important discussion.

Bill
 

LitFuse

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I also agree, at least to a point.

I feel bad that Charlie works very hard to provide an excellent product at a very reasonable price, but doesn't get any of the "gravy". If anyone is making the "big bucks" on his creations, it should rightly be him.

On the other hand, I think that once you pay for something, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. Supply and demand is what it is. I wasn't sure how to handle the sale of my VIP. So I listed it at eBay with no reserve, and let the market decide it's value. To my thinking, there is really nothing wrong with that. Yes, I did make a substantial profit (much more than I thought I would) on it, but is this a crime?

I don't know what the answer is, I wish I did. I think Charlie (and anyone else who makes custom lights) should charge a price that that they feels fairly compensates them for their efforts. Make the money they want up front, and then let 'em loose. Maybe "hold back" a few units from the run to be sold to the high bidder so they get some of the secondary market action. I really don't know, but I don't think it's practical to try to control the market value of an item that is limited in supply.


Peter
 

NewBie

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Well, imho, alot of what they do is much like a personal favor, in the realm of custom enthusiast type stuff.

Making these outstanding creations affordable for the average cpf'er, kudos to all involved.

LitFuse, they could always go back and make another run, if they wanted to yield the gravy. Something that shows adoration of the users, due to it's features, performance, etc. and sets itself above and beyond the atypical flashlight, such as the ARC/MAGLITE/PEAK/Streamlight/CMG/Infinity/etc. is much like the evolution of the craft. If one of these companies wants to come along an purchase it, a fella could do quite well. Either that, or contract the skills of those involved for a new line of their own.

At times, a fella has to offer his item up for sale, in order to release funds to try out additional advances/options/flavors. Often times this money received goes right back into the hands of creators/modders. If a profit is realized, so much the better, typically more funds become available to put in their hands.

I know I've done custom stuff myself, and it makes a fella sad to see it go, even to send it to the person that you did it for. Often times, there is an incredible amount of time and effort involved, that goes *way* beyond the "purchase price". Yet, for these fellas that are doing mass creations/mods, it is typically a few out of many, so there is much less a sense of loss.

Now, imho, it would be nice, not required or frowned upon otherwise, to send a portion of the profit back to the creator/modder. Kind of like a token thank you. Yet how far back do you go? Sometimes these are the creations of multiple individuals.

Another thing that could be done is a development fund, but that opens a beehive of issues, along with many getting stung. But, a fella could contribute a small portion to cpf, and those that make this whole community possible by bringing them together to one place. For many, I see they have done this.
 

kevindick

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Way back when, I got my degree in economics and this is a pretty interesting issue, so forgive the slightly pedantic monolgue. From a classical microeconomic standpoint, a lot of modders offer their creations at below market value--creating a shortage and leading to arbitrage. Nothing surprising here.

However, the reasons for this pricing are interesting. I think the reason modders sell below market value is because they receive non-monetary utility from the feeling of contributing to the CPF community. The CPF members that buy their wares also receive non-monetary utility from owning community-respected items, which is why many hold on to them despite the opportunity for profit.

Peope seem to feel that performing the pricing arbitrage on CPF itself detracts from this non-monetary utility by eroding the feeling of community. From a game theoretic perspective, it seems perfectly reasonable to therefore apply social sanctions that provide a dis-incentive to engaging in the utility-destroying behavior. Of course, Sasha can provide the ultimate social sanction by making a policy against such profiteering, with expulsion from the community the cost of violation.

I suppose that one could also apply social sanction to the use of eBay for arbitrage. This seems a little unfair in the absence of a clear contract at the time of sale. But if Mr Bulk wants to say that he doesn't expect people to profiteer at the time he sells a light, then everyone can make an appropriate purchase decision. All this, IMHO.
 

LightChucker

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I guess I missed it, but what happened that everyone is so concerned about? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Could someone point me to the thread we are talking about here, or just tell me what happened?

Thanks,

Chuck
 

this_is_nascar

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Peter, I think you're fine with how you handled your sale. You took the chance of putting it up, with possibly (although unlikely) a top-bid of only $50 or $60. You took a risk and was fortuneate enough to do really well. I guess there is no right/wrong answer. My beef is with those getting in on a pre-order list, with the only intent to sell these limited-quantity products for a profit. It's just not right. Don't get me wrong, I buy several of everything I buy and then sell off what I don't want, however it's very seldom at a profit. Maybe I'm the dumb-***, who knows.
 

Bullzeyebill

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I think the e-bay idea is ok. Let the market decide. If I had to let my VIP go for desperate financial reasons, I might go to eBay with it, but the only way I could be assured a market would be to advertise in CPF about a pending eBay sale, or I could just put it in Custom and Mods BST, and charge a reasonable price for it, or do something worthy with it and do a special CPF auction and give some of the proceeds to CPF, and still keep a good portion for myself. What ever, the true market place will be CPF people, or those lurking, if it goes on eBay. I guess the real issue is, a fair market value considering supply and demand vs. something approaching scalping. It is almost not worth the effort to ponder this question. Maybe we should not worry about how much money someone is making on a VIP, or Lion Heart, and consider unusual profit on such comodities an anomoly, something that will occur only occassionally.

Bill
 

avusblue

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I totally agree with coachbigdog, nascar, and others. This isn't about what you have a "right" to do, or "can" do, but what you should do.

Due to circumstances, recently I sold my VIP via the BST forum here (along with some other "premium handcrafted" lights). I figured that gouging for profits was NOT in the spirit of MrBulk's intent. While I do not begrudge others their free right to do so, I slept better (and still do) that I sold it for a price that merely recouped my cost, shipping, and paypal fee. No more, no less. In the process I can feel good that someone who was shut out of the original VIP offer got in.

Now I understand supply and demand, this is America, and I'm all for it. But I think we can choose to be more of a "fellowship" here at CPF. We're the good guys in the white hats, united by a common interest seeing the state of portable light advanced, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif For instance, I've certainly benefitted from, and been grateful for, Nascar's fair pricing and honest dealing. He's a beacon of truth around here, not afraid to call 'em as he sees 'em.

Lastly, I also would not want to profiteer at the risk of incurring the wrath of MrBulk's infamous "cut off" decree -- to be banished to the dark, were there is weeping and gnashing of teeth! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Cheers,

Dave
 

LitFuse

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[ QUOTE ]
Bullzeyebill said:
I guess the real issue is, a fair market value considering supply and demand vs. something approaching scalping. It is almost not worth the effort to ponder this question. Maybe we should not worry about how much money someone is making on a VIP, or Lion Heart, and consider unusual profit on such comodities an anomoly, something that will occur only occassionally.

Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely with this POV. It is an anomoly, at least for now. I can see this changing though.

As CPF has grown, the demand for these cutting edge custom lights has also grown. Grown to a point where a (mostly) one man show like Mr Bulk is having trouble keeping up with the demand. Charlie does it mostly for the love, not the cash /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif but I think it's getting bigger than he can (or wants to) handle. I mean the guy's got a family and a "real" job too. It may be that the days of being able to purchase multiples of his latest creation are over, at least for those that aren't in the inner circle (I'm not).

Or till he retires and starts full time production. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Peter
 

TrueBlue

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I agree with Coachbigdog. I've done a couple of mods and I've bought a couple of extra lights from places that are not accessible to other CPFers. I might be dumb because I don't sell lights for a profit. Oh, I make a little money but that money goes into my flashaholic money so I keep a light, share with others and the "profit" money goes back into getting more lights to share. I do this because it is a hobby and not a business to make a profit.

If someone made a mod for me I would graciously keep it. It doesn't matter if the person made one or a thousand mod lights because I know it was his dream and his personal creation to make. I know how long it takes to make a modded light and the time and effort to even think of a modded light exceeds the time to make the light. I've been born with a rare emotion called conscience. I would feel very bad selling something that someone went out of the way to make for me. I would feel extremely bad if I did make a bunch of money, profiteering by selling the personal item.

If I were Mr. Bulk I would start cranking out lots of VIP lights to saturate the light market. That would depress the scarce value of the VIP so the owners of the VIP light would have to keep it and would have no reason to have the financial gain temptation and to profit off his sweat. A few people will/have initially gained financially on the VIP sale at Ebay but will lose out of withheld opportunities later on. The initial sellers that sold the VIP light at Ebay willfully wanted the flashlight to make a profit. Wait until the one-hundredth person puts his VIP on Ebay. No more profit. But the two people that put the VIP on Ebay opened the door and show the way for others at CPF to make a profit buy selling the rare lights at Ebay. Mr. Bulk might as well stop selling lights at CPF and sell them directly through Ebay. More power to him. His profits would be great. But I think Mr. Bulk has a conscience.

Selling the VIP lights was legal but not ethical in my way of thinking.

But stepping on people's toes is how to get rich. After a while you have the money but no real friends.
 

NIGHTGUY

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I agree with Coachbigdog and avusblue completely. I too have been personally benefitted from the fair pricing and honest dealing of Coachbigdog, Nascar, JollyRoger, Led_ASAP, Wasebe64, and Darkgear. Without their fair pricing I would not be able to own some of the most priced lights including the Mcluxes, Firefly and of course Mr. Bulk Creations. To them and other like them including the creators/modders, my thanks and kudos.
 

keithhr

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Re: Mr.BULK ,please read as well as all VIP owners

I think Charlie's feelings should be considered as well. I know Charlie expects a few to be sold because they don't fit the owner's expectations because of size or other aesthetic considerations. He takes great pride in his work, evidenced by the way he selects Luxeons etc and the way he stands behind what he makes. And since all of MrBulk's creations are his babies so to speak since he gave them life.
I'm sure he feels a moment of sadness when someone doesn't appreciate his light as he intended. I'm sure his expectations were that each owner would at least try to cherish and appreciate his creation because in a way there is a bit of Charlie in each light, at least in spirit. I purchased two VIPs and if I ever felt the need to sell one, I believe I might feel compelled to write to Charlie to tell him why. This is just my reaction and I feel that Charlie in many ways makes each light in kind of a personal way.I think he must have some kind of an image in his mind of who he sells lights to, at least a bit of an image.

Charlie would never say it but I'll bet he would be happy if he knew that every VIP or LionHeart owner would cherish each light always. I'm kind of a sentimentalist so for those who find this a bit much , and to those, I apologize. I have sold almost all of my regular retail lights except for one L4 and a Tigerlight, the idea of owning custom designed and executed lights that in some cases are more art than anything else is to me exciting. I feel that I have become a bit of a collector and enjoy each light for different reasons.

If anyone wants to mimic a classic cpf'er, look no further than this_is-nascar. He buys many of a kind because only the best will do and he is picky. But he almost always sells to recoup most of his investment and prices everything accordingly so they will sell fast. I have rarely seen him make a dime on any light and it's probably cost him a lot of money in the process.
 

LitFuse

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I've never gotten on a pre-order list with the intention of selling the light for a profit, and I never will. By the same token, I won't say that I will never sell one of my custom lights, whether for a profit or not.

I do have to take exception with a couple of things:


[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
I've been born with a rare emotion called conscience.

[/ QUOTE ]


I too have a conscience.


[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
The initial sellers that sold the VIP light at Ebay willfully wanted the flashlight to make a profit. Selling the VIP lights was legal but not ethical in my way of thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]


My auction started at $1 with no reserve. Yes, I was hopeful that it would sell for more than I paid, but there were no guarantees. Not in my wildest dreams did I think it would go as high as it did. The fact that is was worth $405 to someone did not give me an ethical crisis, nor does it qualify me as a "profiteer" in my opinion.


[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
But stepping on people's toes is how to get rich.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really don't think I've stepped on any toes with my actions, and I certainly didn't get rich. A good portion of the proceeds from my auction will go back to Charlie for the LionHeart, and the rest will go toward taking my kids on a summer vacation. I look at as if I've been "thrown a bone" so to speak. A one time deal that worked out well for me.


[ QUOTE ]
haveblue said:
After a while you have the money but no real friends.

[/ QUOTE ]



I can see your point here, and I think this would probably take care of itself if we start to see wanton profiteering on a continuing basis. CPF is a tight community, and I don't think anyone who is carpetbagging here will be welcome for long.

Personally, I feel like I've contributed positively to this forum. I have contributed money directly to CPF, shared my limited knowledge freely, and done many free and nearly free mods for those in need. The people here are the greatest, and will always be more important to me than the "almighty dollar".


Peter
 

keithhr

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Re: Mr.BULK ,please read as well as all VIP owners

LitFuse just got lucky, and since he felt compelled to sell the light(for whatever reason), enough said. I don't believe he should have to defend himself for anything because the did nothing wrong.
 

Beretta1526

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I think what we are talking about here isn't the people who put a VIP on eBay with no reserve and just let it ride. Peter's went for over $400, but the next one went for more than $100 less.

What we ARE talking about is the ones who just post their CIp on B/S/T for $400. My feeling is that in this case, something should go back to the builder (ie: Mr.Bulk, McGizmo, Jets22).

I also feel that people should use their own good judgement. It's not my place to tell someone that they have to 'give back'.

Needless to say, MY personal preference would be to 'give back' a little somehow. That is what I would do.


Now about the thread... It's quite possible this belongs in another forum, probably the Cafe.
 
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