Why the uninitiated like the Mag

It's been a long time since I've had one, but today I went out and bought a 4D Mag. I can now see why people like it. Shhhh.. wait, hold the crucifixion and torture implements till I'm finished. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The Mag is pretty *DARN* bright - much brighter than I ever remember it for being, especially with the Krypton lamp. I bought the Krypton lamp a long time ago and always intended to put it in the Mag.. until the old one passed on. In terms of just pure brightness if you don't care about anything else, in terms of beam quality, size, weight, or long term field reliability for mission critical uses, the Mag still wins. Plus certain other users appreciate the Mag's "tactical" value (as in /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif ). I can see why, to the unenlightened, the full metal jacket of the Mag appeals to people, and the brightness is "wow" to people who have never really seen any better. The sturdy construction impresses them, and it is undeniably bright (much brighter than most consumer grade lights).

Of course the first thing I did was make the Mag shoot against my Surefire 6P and E1e. Immediately, the focus becomes annoying. To compare them at different ranges, I keep having to refocus the Mag in order to try and give it a fair chance. In terms of brightness I believe the 6P is still SLIGHTLY brighter than the Krypton lamp, which in turn slightly brighter than the stock lamp.

The hotspot is small when truly focused, and there are still beam artifacts. The krypton bulb is the worst offender. Heck, even the stock bulb does not have two angular shadows in the beam. They look like dark shadows with an angle of 5 degrees, one on each side. Of course, the whole array of beam artifacts including annoying donut hole is there.

It's hard to justify the krypton bulb unless you can get it at similar prices to the regular bulb. Beam artifacts are much worse and brightness is really not that much better. Color temperature is slightly whiter, but still not up to the beautiful P60 incan's whiteness.

Once again, I am reminded why we pay top dollar for lights like Surefire, when a tiny little five ounce thing like the 6P can give the Mag a run for its money (although it cost me about twice as much as the Mag), delivering a perfectly smooth, flawless beam at any range with no focus, with momentary tailswitch which I've come to love. Mag's instruction sheet recommends checking the light every month in order to guard against batteries corroding in it (and if the battery corrodes anyway you're stuck). While that is all right for a flashaholic, what happens if it corrodes while you're not looking? It's worse for normal users to whom every six months is already a pain to change batteries. "take the batteries out" is a recommendation.. and when the lights go out, it's a hassle to reload them. I love the lithium 123s for long term standby, they don't destroy lights. ChemKote interiors are a huge plus, although lithiums are unlikely to need them, the attention to detail is incredible. And Mags don't travel well. SFs do. That, and SFs have nice Pyrex lenses. I am a *BIG* fan of pyrex. Before I got my SF lights, I was worried about the lens getting scratched, because the MiniMag got scratched by everything and anything. Pyrex or UCL, anything else is NOT acceptable.

So in the long run, user education does count for a lot if we are to convert people to the light side. They have to see it for themselves. Plus, the SF lights scale well - 65 lumens is the beginning. For stock Mags, 65 lumens is about where they top out and the only way to get more is to increase the size drastically, whereas SF lights pack a little bit more bulk for a frightening amount of light in return (cue M6 owner testimonials here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

And as for why I bought one.. my TWOL + Hotlips arrived yesterday. But that is another story for another thread and will be told there...

interesting observations.

i certainly believe that the mag is a pretty high quality light. it is very tough, and pretty bright.

however, as you observed, it is both too large and the beam isnt great. sounds odd, but i prefer my little Dorcy 4AA boss.

the size really bothers me. the 2D is huge, being probably 3" longer than it needs to be. it is heavy as well. nice if you want to whack someone.

add up the size, weight and not-so-perfect beam, and the mag loses to my other lights.

heck, i took a 2c mag (smaller and lighter) and did the KPR112 and 3-123's, sputtered the reflector, and now i have a great light. i will probably find a slightly dimmer but more reliable bulb soon.

or...perhaps a hotlips and a sweet 5W or driven-like-crazy 3w...mmmmmmm....

Bob

I have a few observations to offer regarding the maglites.

First, in my experience, they do not stay as bright as they are when you first buy them. I suspect this is because oxidation and corrosion resistance build up on the switch contacts and spring/pedestal contacts (and threads, but these can be cleaned and lubricated with silicone).

Second, (and this follows from the first) I COMPLETELY disagree that the mag is a "high quality" light. Once you've seen the switch/pedestal assembly inside and out, you will never go back to THAT opinion. Plus, the reflector is plastic ! Also, as was mentioned, the inside is not ChemKoted, and the outside is not hard anodized.

If we're thinking of lights in this price range, give me a PT Surge anyday. Unless, of course, you're looking for your light to double as a club. Then the mag is the clear winner. Great club. I've also used a 4D mag to pound nails when I was in college.

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js said:
I have a few observations to offer regarding the maglites.

First, in my experience, they do not stay as bright as they are when you first buy them. I suspect this is because oxidation and corrosion resistance build up on the switch contacts and spring/pedestal contacts (and threads, but these can be cleaned and lubricated with silicone).

Second, (and this follows from the first) I COMPLETELY disagree that the mag is a "high quality" light. Once you've seen the switch/pedestal assembly inside and out, you will never go back to THAT opinion. Plus, the reflector is plastic ! Also, as was mentioned, the inside is not ChemKoted, and the outside is not hard anodized.

If we're thinking of lights in this price range, give me a PT Surge anyday. Unless, of course, you're looking for your light to double as a club. Then the mag is the clear winner. Great club. I've also used a 4D mag to pound nails when I was in college.

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LOL! the last part cracked me up!

Bob

The Mag is the winner because thats whats carried by the hardware store. I always walk the flashlight section at the home depot when I go there and there are several kinds of yellow plastic flashlights, and then the best looking ones are the Mags. There is no comparison between a 2D plastic and a 2D Mag. The Mag is the obvious choice when you're standing there.

When you're picking up a new flashlight at the hardware store, the Mag is the winner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you like flashlights, or need something better and research it then you can find all sorts of great things. But the Mag is the retail channel winner, hands down.

If don't even agree with them being "bright."
I'll just say that even a PT Rage is a tough comparison for a 2D M*g, and I don't even agree with the 6P being SLIGHTLY brighter. Did you check batteries in your 6P? Or maybe you're talking about a 6D or MagCharger? In this case, there is some sort of comparison between M*g and 6P...

Richard

If it was a 2D Mag, I'd take out my E1e+KL1 and give it a run for its money in a little 3" light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It was actually a 4D Mag, 6V of fresh alkaline and 6V of fresh lithium in the 6P.

I stripped the switch in mine last night. Noted, the switch assembly isn't exactly your precision tailcap switch, and the reflector is plastic. Makes it easier to saw through when you are installing your mods though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Inside and outside are Type II anodizing.

Thanks for the tip about the contact/thread cleaning, I'll keep an eye on this one as time goes by. My last one corroded to death. Nothing short of a Dremel would have saved that one, so any measurements of resistance would probably have been meaningless.

As for the retail channel, that is a very good point. I was at a supermarket the other day and I had a choice of $3 of cheap lantern, $5-$10 of cheap plastic flashlight by some big namebrand, lots of other plastic lights around that price range, and from the perspective of the uninitiated, the Mag looks good from the outside especially compared relative to the other lights. That's what the modders like it for, it looks good on the outside and the interior can be greatly improved with some retrofit work. I would have chosen the Mag (as I did in the past) because at that time, I did not know of better alternatives. However, this can be changed.

I'd like to see better lights available at retail. Do you think there's an opportunity here or am I facing an uphill, un-winnable battle against those who want to pay as little as possible?

Anyway, guess what I bought?






... the $3 lantern. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why do the uninitiated like 'em?

The same reasons work for any topic/item that can be specialized as much as flashlights are here. That is to say, unless you know better, or are willing to take the time to do a little research, most people tend to believe in what they see advertised, and the claimed qualities. That's why advertising is such a bug buck industry.

Mag's sell because of the strengths claimed in their ads and perceived quality compared to what's most popular. SF and others don't spend the advertising dollars and don't buy space in stores the way mag does. It's a different interpretation on "what you see, is what you get," since most people never see a better light, so they get a mag.

Same logic applies to cars, cameras, even beer. If Bud is the best selling beer, it's probably not because it's the best tasting beer, but because it's the one brand more Americans see than any other. And advertising will lead people just like sheep -- most folks wanna be part of the crowd, and are happy to settle for what they see for sale most frequently.

But I doubt that this is saying anything really new.

Don't get me wrong -- I've got several mags, but I view them as expendable and expandable, and I would loan them out, but not my SF's or other good lights.

But then, I also will leave the Bud to those who appreciate it's qualities better than I can.

- (a different) Craig

They're a great "throw it in the car and forget about it until you need it" light. And, of course, you can wallop someone with em /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think a big factor and why Mag's are popular is the price point.

When you consider that a 3D Mag is $20, pretty tough, bright enough for general use, and uses EASY TO FIND CHEAP BATTERIES, it's not a bad deal for a decent light that does all things fairly well.

If you like your Mag 2/3D/C for... whatever reasons, that's ok with me. But, get yourself an Everled. Now, you get non-dimming truly white light that is every bit as bright as the 3 cell bulb on new batteries. Oh, and it runs that way for 30 hours!

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sween1911 said:
They're a great "throw it in the car and forget about it until you need it" light. And, of course, you can wallop someone with em /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think a big factor and why Mag's are popular is the price point.

When you consider that a 3D Mag is $20, pretty tough, bright enough for general use, and uses EASY TO FIND CHEAP BATTERIES, it's not a bad deal for a decent light that does all things fairly well.

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Exactly!

To be honest, anti-Mag talk always kind of grates on me. Mags serve a definite purpose, and I don't really understand why so many people view them as an inferior product. I see nothing wrong with liking them for what they are. Sure, they aren't as bright or as small as many available, but like I said - Mags serve a definite purpose. They're an inexpensive, decently-made light that's tough, takes cheap batteries, and that you can wallop somebody with if necessary. Utilitarian. Are there "better" lights out there? Of course, but that doesn't make the Mag any less useful.

Also, I know this might be a tough pill for most flashaholics to swallow, but not *everyone* wants - or even needs - a super bright, expensive, specialized light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I Agree with all you folks about mags and there purposes.

Once my friends and I decided to hike back to truck in the dark and all we had was my mini-mag and my friends no name AA light which had burned out batteries, I had extra AA's. The sad part is we had SF lights at home and in the truck. The mini-mag(stock) worked like a champ. Batteries did not drain and bulb did not blow.

My mom a couple of months back was on her way to a trip to Costa Rica. I did not realize how unprepared she was untill I asked here are you taking a flashlight. She said she had on of those "little pen lights". Well, time was short and I gave her on of my mini-mags with holster and knew if she needed batteries she could find them in Costa Rica. My mom was so greatful. Now, I am slowly upgrading here equipment for her next trip. She stated that she did not need the mag-light at all but kept it with here. The mini-mag was way better than what she had and a lot better than nothing.

Sorry so long folks

yeah i agree! .........okay not exactly

The Mag is a high quality HOST and body but that's about where i draw the line.

Bright? the bulb in it may have the ability to be "bright" but that same bulb could go into a $5 light and be be alot better in my opinion

I just picked up a brand new Mag 2C a couple of months ago and as soon as i turned it on I started chuckling, but yet the body is nice and that's why i kept it.

Maglites to me seem like a well-built "tank" with Kia Sephia or Chevy Chevette internal components("engine").

Maybe one of these days Mag will stop sueing other companies with better products(can we say JEALOUSY!) and focus on improving their own. I mean how hard is it for them to incorporate a sputtered reflector of some sort?? no, not just to improve the beam quality or make it "pretty" to us CPFer's liking but to increase/improve the spill light to make their lights more useful. the loss of throw would be very minimal if even noticable at all.


okay im done rambling /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

KevinL1, im not intending to totally disagree with you or anything, just adding my comments/opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Mags are ok, but I like the beam that cheaper Rayovac indsutrials give

I like them because they are good value when purchased at the right price. When I go to the average store that sells flashlights around here, the Mags are the best-looking and best-finished lights on the rack. They are normally priced 50-100% more than similar-looking lights. They set the standard for quality, and generally speaking, you have to be better than Mag to even rate.

As far as I can tell from my oldest Mags, they haven't done any R&D for at least 20 years. It is pretty hard to believe they don't notice things are changing, and charging a premium price for the genre is not going to fool too many people much longer.

I have two complaints about them. They have horrible beams, and putting in a better/brighter bulb just exaggerates the beam problems...it never looks good. And I have to wonder about the inside of their tubes...do they use a special process that enhances alkaline battery leakage? If not, how come Mags get ruined by leaking batteries, when those *exact same and date* batteries don't leak in other items or when on the shelf? That's just my experience, I'd never leave a Mag as an emergency light because of it. OK, I'll add a third thing: I can buy waterproof lights for a fraction of Mag's price, even metal ones, so let's do that too.

If I sound negative about them, I actually did buy 3 more of them lately... Got a 3D + Mini combo for Cdn$20 (~US$15) at Home Depot, and a 2C at Radio Shack today for Cdn$12.50 (~US$9) for modding. And some Xenon bulbs for them (VERY hard to find around here, the RS ones are not as bright as they used to be...). Personally I think the Legend LX (2AA) is far superior to the Mini Mag for evey use, but they are much harder to find and more expensive here, never on sale, but there are some good mod options for the Mini Mag.

So I think the uninitated like them for the same reasons I do, they're basically solid and well built compared to what the uninitiated usually sees in the flashlight section. As usual, some knowledge and experience makes you a lot more picky.

I agree on the beam part. Note that in my first post I mis-identified the bulbs, the basic stock bulb is a krypton. The brighter bulb (with more artifacts) I refer to is actually the Mag-Num star Xenon lamp which I bought in its sealed blister pack. I was surprised that the 'brighter' lamp has more artifacts. The stock bulb works just fine.

The donut hole problem has been around for a while, even in the past when I thought it was the brightest, best light I could buy, I still had to deal with the donut hole either by panning it or playing with the reflector focusing system. They are a decent light for the "average" user, but the competition is intensifying. However, it should be noted that supermarket $5 special lights still pose no threat. You'd be surprised how many places stop at those $5 lights, they don't even carry Mags! So when a Mag shows up, it is impressive.


4x4Dragon: No worries, it's a good host, that's why I got the "CPF OAD Upgrade Kit". Hotlips, TWOL, 1 ohm resistor, UCL on the way, and I like it once more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Haha, uninitiated, to the general public yes.

When some Marines get pissed at Mag's and the 2D angle head, the results are surprising.

Believe it or not, Surefire found its way into some hands of my fellow Marines. An Aviator A2, Z2, G2, E2D, and L1 were holstered on the belts of Marines during the last field training exercise. Also an Inova X5 was on another Marines belt.

The remaining guys (and gals) with lights were mini Mags (numbered at 10), and the LED lights they sold at the PX (Post Exchange), numbered around 4. I got to use one of the 3 LED lights they bought at the PX for $25. Decent consturction, not like Surefire's or Inova's, and beam was angry blue. My Longbow Micra with reflector and UCL was 1/3 of the size and blew them away, killed the Mini mags too. It was often too much light, so my Arc AAA saw a lot of usage.

So, Mag's are pretty impressive and expensive for most "average" people as said in above posts. It is a step up from the cheapo plastic lights, offers a new bulb, runs on inexpensive d batteries, the people that walk the home depot or Wal-mart think they got a sure thing in their hands. What honestly do they use these lights for? They are not looking for the "cool" factor, or the beam quality factor (because they haven't seen anyhting better), and they just honestly use it to light up areas when power goes out, or put it in their car, for occasional rare usage. I doubt anyone has the budgets CPF'ers put on lights. In the past 3 years I dropped close to $800 on lights and stuff for lights (mods, batteries, cases, UCL's, reflectors, etc.
) The average consumer wlaking Wal-mart doesn't want to spend over $10 on a light.
I for a moment thought my Mag lite was cool, but then again I was 12........

i think this question has been answered fully in the posts so far. One person's impression of the best is limited purely to their knowledge base. I too used to think mags were great (oh the shame) because that was the best I'd seen. I found CPF because I was surfing for ways to drive white leds from 3v. I've since bought newbeams/badboys for the 2aa lights, surefires to accompany the 2aa lights on my belt, and when I want a big light I reach for my blasterII (one of last green ones, still unscratched). Now that's what I call indestructible!

I keep a few plastic 4D lights as loaners, that way the nice ones stay unabused! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

IMHO, Mag is the most popular mod host.

I also notice Mag moves enough of these to have made it bigtime in the retail channel, popular enough to be carried at Target, ShopKo, Wal-Mart, Fred Meyer, GI Joe's, and I could keep listing stores for quite some time.

Maybe the uninitiated are smarter than we think. They like a light that:

1. pretty cheap, you can usually get a D size for $15 or so
2. uses cheap batteries
3. uses long lasting batteries
4. uses easy to find batteries
5. can go from spot to flood (I never hear complaints of the spot beam having donuts!)
6. no lost sleep over loaning one out
7. tough
8. spare bulb (got one over on surefire/etc here)
9. decently watertight
10. long runtime (no one ever talks about this)

For the "common" light user, a mag 3c with an everled makes an almost perfect light. It still makes a good light even with the stock bulb.

R&D??? Why? They're making gazillions of bucks making a light that has made them famous. I would hazard to say that they spend "R&D" dollars on streamlining their manufacturing processes/etc. They have dropped in price over the years, and this isn't even taking into account inflation.

Excuse me here when I say that if they were REALLY even HALF the buttholes we think the are they could have easily bought up the other light manufacturers. Has anyone considered this? What would you do if mag bought streamlight/brinkmann/etc.

Lastly, I bet that I know some people that LOVE mag. Their USA employees.