Don't buy a Photon Fusion until....

Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Don't buy a Photon Fusion until Photon upgrades the battery compartment latch. It's in the works, but could be weeks to possibly months. The fellow I talked to at Photon said the mold(s) that were supposed to fix the problem, where the light is manufactured in China, were made wrong, and can't be used. They are still getting the design worked out. The timeline was left deliberately vague by him, although I tried to pin him down.

I knew about the weak latch problem, and I was *very* careful when I opened the battery cover. But after opening it only 5 or 6 times, always indoors, the lower half of the latch broke off, rendering the light useless....unless you have a roll of duct tape *with* you.

I had to send the old battery case in to Photon, and they are going to send me a replacement, which is the same latch design.

So, I don't expect to see the replacement for around 10 days. I've had to return the first Photon Fusion I received, due to a dead on arrival LED. Now, I have to return the battery case.

I am more than a little annoyed by all of the down time, or I should say 'missing in the mail' time this rather expensive headlight has had since I bought it.

And, whenever they get the new battery cover latch redesigned, I will have to send the battery case back yet *again*, to have it 'upgraded'. All returns have been at my expense, of course.

I know that Photon is doing what they can, but frankly, whoever designed that tiny little tab, with a hole in it, to hold the battery cover down against the pressure of 6 rather strong springs, is an idiot. The latch that holds the removable head strap attachment to the battery cover is extremely well made: heavy plastic, large grooves and tabs, and well engineered. The battery case latch should have been made with the same level of engineering. One look at the flimsy battery case cover latch, and you'd shake your head: what the h**l were they *thinking*?

The Photon Fusion is an excellent headlight, (and convertible to a free standing table or hand held light), except for this one really bad feature.

In a month or 2, Photon will likely have this problem fixed, I hope, since the first latch lasted about a month, despite my efforts to be as careful as possible when opening it.

And my headlight, or part of it, will have spent well over a month in the mail, or at Photon, waiting to be fixed.

You would be much better off waiting until this is worked out, to buy a Photon Fusion, and avoid the headaches I'm having with this headlight. (no pun intended....)

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Wow - another angry post from Gandalf!!!

This is not new news. I posted this earlier this week and this information has also been public knowledge for some time - It's even mentioned on LRI's discussion group - this post is dated the 3rd January. I note you posted another angry post post there concerning your Fusion on the 1/15/02!

Try to take some deep breaths when things go wrong - seriously you'll do yourself an injury! If you can't take the hastle of failures on newly-introduced products, then wait until they mature. I speak from experience as the owner of 2 Alfa Romeos that have given me more than my fair share of trouble over the years. Do I care ? Yes! Do I get stressed? No!

Life doesn't have to be a dark ride - it a decision you make.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Arab, I sense no stress at all from Gandalf. Step off dude.

Gandalf did us all a favor by informing the community of a bad situation.


Your attitude about being willing to overlook/deal-with product flaws after the product is released is just crazy IMHO. What kind of motivation is that for manufacturers to release something correctly at the first batch with your attitude? None.

I've got a Photon Fusion and knew within *5 minutes* after taking it out of the package that the latch wouldn't hold and immediately emailed Photon about it. I'm certainly not an engineer and could tell that thing would easily break with a little use. How couldn't Photon tell that after: 1) Drawing up the blueprints 2) Handling prototypes 3) Handling production models?????????

Someone at Photon needed to set their foot down about the latch and just couldn't bring themselves to do it and NOW they are looking at a costly redesign AND a ton of warranty work with most people sending theirs back in for the new latch. Bad business.


Keep buying your Alfa Romeos, I'm looking for products that work.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arab:
Wow - another angry post from Gandalf!!!

This is not new news. I posted this earlier this week and this information has also been public knowledge for some time - It's even mentioned on LRI's discussion group - this post is dated the 3rd January. I note you posted another angry post post there concerning your Fusion on the 1/15/02!

Try to take some deep breaths when things go wrong - seriously you'll do yourself an injury! If you can't take the hastle of failures on newly-introduced products, then wait until they mature. I speak from experience as the owner of 2 Alfa Romeos that have given me more than my fair share of trouble over the years. Do I care ? Yes! Do I get stressed? No!

Life doesn't have to be a dark ride - it a decision you make.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

it is good advice, but i agree with him about quality control.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Forge said:
Step off dude.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see you are new to this forum. This is a friendly place where people exchange information about their mutual interests. My reply to Gandalf's post was genuine and was not in any way intended to annoy or insult him. I'm not the first person to notice his stressed reactions to events either.

Please don't threaten people in your posts again. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums where such threats are acceptable.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Forge said
Gandalf did us all a favor by informing the community of a bad situation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not new news.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Forge said
Your attitude about being willing to overlook/deal-with product flaws after the product is released is just crazy IMHO. What kind of motivation is that for manufacturers to release something correctly at the first batch with your attitude? None.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Early adopters have always had to accept pain. Even ARC have had problems with both their AAA and LS lights. I am not happy with this situation, but it's life. Accept it or you will get stressed.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Forge said
Keep buying your Alfa Romeos, I'm looking for products that work.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then perhaps you should wait a suitable period of time until they mature? And as for Alfa's, how could you not forgive this it's little indiscretions?

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arab:
Please don't threaten people in your posts again. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums where such threats are acceptable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd advise you to choose your words carefully. No one in their right mind would see what I wrote as a "threat".

Perhaps you should consider another forum to hang out in.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Everybody go have a beer and chill out. Geez.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, even if it is wrong!

Seriously, rants on this board are just as important as raves. If you have a problem with a product, speak out about it and let others know! If you love a product, do the same! It may be helpful, however to do a SEARCH at the top of the page first to see if the topic has already been mentioned - you can just add to and re-activate an old thread instead of creating a new one.

If you don't like what someone else writes/says, keep it civil if you are going to let them know about it. Agree to disagree, keep it light-hearted, and play nice.

BTW, I've seen people brand new to this forum provide unbelievably insightful and helpful opinions, and "seasoned veterans" resort to personal attacks. Let's judge our members on their content, not their membership number.

Stepping off soap box...

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gandalf:

I know that Photon is doing what they can, but frankly, whoever designed that tiny little tab, with a hole in it, to hold the battery cover down against the pressure of 6 rather strong springs, is an idiot. The latch that holds the removable head strap attachment to the battery cover is extremely well made: heavy plastic, large grooves and tabs, and well engineered. The battery case latch should have been made with the same level of engineering. One look at the flimsy battery case cover latch, and you'd shake your head: what the h**l were they *thinking*?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I called Photon on Friday, to see when I could expect the replacement battery case and/or battery case latch to be shipped. It's been close to two weeks since I sent it.

Silly me, expecting an E-mail from Photon: 'We have received your item for repair, on XX date, and it should be shipped out on XX date.... Perhaps they were wondering why I included my E-mail address...

I was informed by Photon that my defective Photon 3 had been replaced, and I should receive it very shortly. I was told several times that I had sent them a defective Photon 3. After all, it said so in their computer, and computers are *always* right, aren't they?

Perhaps, in a parallel universe, I had returned a defective Photon 3, (although I cannot imagine why I would have purchased one in the first place), but in this universe, I had returned a Photon Fusion battery case, with a broken latch.

Frankly, I'm not impressed with either the Photon 2 or 3. They need to use either 2025, or 2032 lithium batteries, to give more than an hour or so of bright light. And, owning several, far superior Arc-AAA's, including an Arc-LE, what would I want one for? But that's another story....

I had included a letter, detailing the (obvious)problem, and, to avoid any chance of confusion, as might happen if the letter were separated from the battery case, I put a stick on address label on the battery case itself, with my name, address, telephone number, and E-mail address.

Nice idea.

I was told they would be sending out a battery case and/or cover, on Monday morning.

How nice...two weeks before they even ship a replacement part.

After getting off the phone with Photon (another long distance call at my expense), for no real reason, I got out the remaining pieces of my Photon Fusion headlight; perhaps to recall the 2 weeks or so I was actually able to use the light in the many weeks since I bought it.

And I discovered that the heavy duty latch that holds the removable headstrap assembly to the battery case, was broken; pretty much the same as the battery case latch itself had broken.

My use of my Photon Fusion has been very light: just using it inside my house, to get an idea of it's utility. I have probably actually used it for less than 4 or 5 hours.

That means the latch on the headstrap assembly had not even held up to being removed 2 times from the battery case, and replaced once.

I can only conclude that Photon is using a very poor quality plastic in the construction of their Photon Fusion headlight. Or at least in the batch *my* Photon Fusion came from. And hundreds or thosands of other ones, as well, of course.

I am now looking forward to sending, at my expense, the headstrap assembly from my Photon Fusion, for replacement.

And waiting yet another 2 weeks to get my Photon Fusion into working order. Again

The long distance phone calls to Photon, and postage, insurance, and packing materials to return all 3 components to Photon, will have increased the cost of my Photon Fusion headlight by 20 to 25%%.

What a bargain this light has been....

Imagine buying a $20,000 car, and having to spend 20% of the cost, or $4000, to get it fixed in the first 6 weeks of ownership, with the car being unusable for 4 of those weeks. The amounts differ, but the analogy is a valid one, I think.

I have had to foot the bill for a substantial amount of the cost of 'warranty' repairs.

I've had to make time in my schedule to drive to the Post Office, during the hours I normally work, and stand in line to return the defective Photon Fusion. And I'm more than a little annoyed about having to do it a third time.

My advice: don't buy a Photon Fusion.

While I seem to have had more than my fair share of trouble with this light, it indicates this light has significant problems, both in design, and in the materials used to make it.

Just say no to poorly constructed products, and avoid the problems I'm having with this piece of c**p headlight.

End of rant. Flame away.

Tell me how you've gone through 20 sets of batteries in sub zero weather, with *your* Photon Fusion, with no problems at all.... I could use a good laugh.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Hmmm, informative. A true sharing of experience.


In the earlier post, once again, Doug Quickbeam shows the way. It's not surprising that he is a well-regarded member of CPF.

As a CPF member, and like everyone else in this topic, a guest in this Forum: LED, Electrolumenescent and Lasers, just a note about some general principles.

I believe that according to current, unwritten CPF Policy, if a member wishes to complain about a light, he/she/it is within his/her/it's rights to do so.

It doesn't have to be *Breaking News* !! Other members might have posted about the same thing, and then another member might see the situation as deserving of still more pixels.
Preferably, you wouldn't post several whole new topics all about exactly the same thing, but it's in order to mention it more than once, if it is in context.

It doesn't even have to be something malfunctioning or bad, actually: positive or negative, you can comment on any aspect of any light. An opinion of your own that others may or may not agree with.

CPF is for discussion, and that involves disagreements. These disagreements should be kept on a "reasonable" basis. In this context, "reasonable" means:

"Please don't treat anyone else in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated yourself."

Personal insults, flaming or baiting are totally unnecessary, and not allowed.

My Great-Aunt used to advise me:
"Don't say anything, unless you've got something nice to say".
Which is a bit silly for communication among adults, so take no notice of that. I never did anyway.
There's another interesting saying, which goes along the lines of:
"Why open your mouth and prove you're a fool, when it's better to keep your mouth closed and let people just think it". (Admittedly, it sounds better in the original ...... )

Having disposed of those two nonsensical pieces of wisdom ......

Grown-up themes call for mature reactions. This is an adult board - not that "Everything and Anything goes", but we don't discuss kid's lights very much. So-called "Adult" language has sometimes been used, while some members don't like to see that.
Let's try to stay reasonably child-friendly, bearing in mind that a school playground isn't full of perfect innocents. If you don't believe that, just ask any Teacher or Scout-Leader about their charge's creative use of language.

Sometimes it's a good idea to write your thoughts down straightaway, but then post them a while later, after some thought. Or post them the next day.

Being angry doesn't make you right, and humour and wit certainly seem to suffer. Furious words can also make you look more aggressive than you might want to seem.

No-one has the right to suggest that a fellow member should post in another forum, elsewhere, or stop posting on CPF altogether.
I think I will include that in the *CPF Policy* which I am ever-so-slowly composing.

Please e-mail me if you want to comment on that, or indeed, any aspect of policy, including your display name in the subject line.

Thank you for listening,

lightlover

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

My most sincere apologies for attempting to warn fellow CPF members that at least some, or perhaps most, of the rather expensive Photon Fusion headlights at resellers may be defective in design and construction.

By all means, please ignore my obviously inflammatory rants, and buy a Photon Fusion. Buy two, in fact.

And let me also apologies for relating my rather poor experience with Photon's Customer Service and Warranty Dept's, too.

I obviously know nothing about the inner working of a large operation like Photon, and I shouldn't have unrealistic expectations about their methods and time lines for dealing with their defective products.

Please forgive me for my obvious ignorance in these matters.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

i, for one, think that your posts definatly have their place, gandalf...you do tend to 'rant' a bit, but the information is good =)...i've heard that the fusion's battery cover was bad, but not in as much detail...i don't have any photon products, mostly because i don't like button cell lights, and now my tendancies are reinforced...the headlamp sounded interesting but not what i would be looking for in a $70 light, especially not now...

again, thanks for your observations...

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:
[QB]There's another interesting saying, which goes along the lines of:
"Why open your mouth and prove you're a fool, when it's better to keep your mouth closed and let people just think it". (Admittedly, it sounds better in the original ...... )[/i]
**********************
LL, I think the phrase is more like
It's better to keep quite & have people think you're a fool rather than speak and remove all doubt.

Click to expand...

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Gandalf,

I don't think you have anything to apologise for. Your posts have been very informative, detailed, and articulate. I don't think Something Ridiculous was really talking about you (I think he was emphasising your right to voice your opinion, if anthing.)

Anyway, good luck with your Fusion..

I think this and a few other events on CPF recently seem to emphasise the need for some sort of FAQ or guide to forum etiquette...

Graham

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gandalf:
My most sincere apologies for attempting to warn fellow CPF members that at least some, or perhaps most, of the rather expensive Photon Fusion headlights at resellers may be defective in design and construction.

By all means, please ignore my obviously inflammatory rants, and buy a Photon Fusion. Buy two, in fact.

And let me also apologies for relating my rather poor experience with Photon's Customer Service and Warranty Dept's, too.

I obviously know nothing about the inner working of a large operation like Photon, and I shouldn't have unrealistic expectations about their methods and time lines for dealing with their defective products.

Please forgive me for my obvious ignorance in these matters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gandalf,
is this post in some way aimed in my direction ?

If so, then why ?

If not, what point/s are you trying to get across ?

lightlover

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Ya gotta remember-this guy got zapped twice in one week with product troubles (Arc-LS and the Photon Fusion),-so his frustration is understandable to me, at least.....

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

LRI started having problems when they went overseas to have many parts of their products made. At least thats what it seems like to me. If I remember right it was suppose to make great product available to us at affordable prices. It sounded good at the time, but...I think they may be having second thoughts about the decision given the delays and unnessary problems. I guess by the time they received the cases for these, they were already so late in the release they pumped them out anyway, hoping to keep folks happy...they do have good customer service...and I`m sure will make things right someday...I agree they should pay the return shipping on these...hmm...maybe you should just ask if you can get your monies back and wait. When they get the cases fixed have them e-mail you...you can decide then if your still interested.

Thanks for bringing this to out attention

Ken

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken B:
I guess by the time they received the cases for these, they were already so late in the release<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By my limited experience, I have never seen a manufacturer (even a non-experienced manufacturer) produce in volume before sending out prototype and production samples to their client for approval especially for plastic products. Once product samples were approved, I couldn't image why the manufacturer modify the injection mold tool without client's request as modifying an injection mold is expensive - who gonna foot the bill? If injection mold is modified for whatever reason even a tiny bit, samples must be submitted again for approval. Not to mention that it's common practice that actual shipment (especially the first shipment) must be inspected by LRI staffs.

In this case, it is simply design flaw.

Alan

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

On Monday afternoon, I called Photon, to report the broken headstrap clamp. I got the same drill as before when I reported the DOA LED, and the broken battery cover latch: return the broken part, and they would send out another one; but it would be the new, stronger design. That's good, but it meant another ten days to two week turn around, and that's not good.

I asked to speak to someone a little higher up in the food chain at Photon, and I spoke with a very polite gentleman who listened to me relate my story of the DOA LED, and it's return to Photon, and replacement, and the same with the battery case/battery cover latch. He said he had not heard of the clamp, or whatever it's called, that snaps onto the battery case, and holds the headstraps on, ever breaking. I had in fact, in one of my previous rants, wondered why the headstrap clamp was so well designed, and obviously strong and well made, while the battery cover latch was so tiny and thin. He agreed with me, and came to the conclusion that possibly there was an air bubble, or some other defect right at the stress point, causing the failure. He agreed that my having to send in all three parts, and wait for replacements, while normal policy for the company, was too much to expect for one owner of one Photon Fusion.

He said he would send me a replacement clamp, and see that the shipment of the battery case was expedited, as well. However, he said the new design battery case/cover latch were still some time off; and no real idea of how long it was going to be. He though it was pretty poor that twice I had been told the new design was available, when it wasn't. I agreed on that point.

He asked me if my Photon Fusion had come with a nylon storage bag, and a belt clip, two recently introduced accessories. The headstraps come off the light, making a very nice hand or table light; the clip would allow it to be clipped to your belt, or most anything else; it's a pretty strong looking clip, with a beefy spring, and some grooves in the plastic to help keep the light in position. This was a very good piece of retro engineering, as it uses the existing hold down point for the lamp portion of the light. There are two of these points on the battery case: one for headlight use, with the light on the side of the battery case, and another on the end of the case for use as a hand, table, or now, a cliplight.

Despite my troubles, which I know are certainly not typical, this is a *very nice* light, with a great deal of engineering innovations that make this headlight, IMHO, the best LED headlight on the market. Six LED's, 3 brightness settings, three strobe settings, auto poweroff with battery life indicator, and likely some I've forgotten. Oh yes: a nice reflector, and the ability to tilt the lamp portion of the light on it's swivel into several locked positions. The people at Photon really did a *lot* of good design work on this light.

So today, after another long day at work, followed by several hours of running errands, since a major winter storm is due tomorrow, I got home about 11 PM, and found the box, which had been shipped UPS 2nd day air, waiting for me. In it was the clip, as mentioned, a nice drawstring nylon pouch for the light, (and it's headstrap, clip, extra batteries, etc.) And, there were extra batteries in the pouch, 6 Eveready alkalines.
And of course, the headstrap clamp, also.

So at this point I feel that Photon has really made a more than reasonable effort to get the light back into working order, as quickly as possible, and they gave me some 'extras', to compensate me for my troubles.

I'm not going to open the battery case to put in NiMH batteries, or lithium cells. I'm not going to open the case until I have to open it to replace the new alkaline cells that are in it, when they are completely run down.

I really like this light, to the point that (when it was working) I was not leaving any lights turned on in my house, except for in the room I was actually in. And when I needed to head to the bathroom or kitchen, I wouldn't turn on all of the lights on the way there; and then leave them on, for several hours, or all night, as often happened before. The lighting I have where my computer is consists of several strands of tiny Christmas lights criss crossing the ceiling, and a sphere made of `100 of the same tiny lights hanging above the computer table. I like to keep the lights dim. All day, I work where very bright fluorescent lighting is required for the precision work I do. When I get home, I like the brightest light to be coming from my monitor and/or TV screen, and the really cheesy looking free standing green and yellow neon palm tree I picked up for a song off a clearance rack at Target.

So, am I the only flashaholic who puts on a headlight when he has to move about his dwelling after dark? Somehow, I doubt it....

But I digress. Photon has really come through in getting the replacement parts to me very quickly this time, and I have been promised that I will receive one of the new battery cases, with the newly improved latch, as soon as they are available.

I made the mistake of not going up the ladder, to speak to someone in management, previously. They know there is a problem with the battery cover latch, and they are trying to fix it. They will replace any broken latch with a new one of the original type, until the re engineered ones are available. And there isn't much more that they can do.

My particular Photon Fusion suffered two unusual, and very uncommon failures, along with the unfortunately, more common battery latch breakage.

AS an aside, has *anyone* EVER received a commercially produced LED light with a DOA LED in it? The odds have to be very, very high against it.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

Didn't see anything wrong with Gandalf's post. He had bad luck and discovered what seems to be a notable problem and passed it on. Growing pains in new products are to be expected to a certain extent, but that does not mean that they have to be tolerated quietly. This is why I am always a generation or two behind on every bit of Microsoft Software that I use!!

I have had superb luck with Photon's customer service/ warranty repair, but I have only sent back Photon I lights.

"Step Off" around this part of the country is normally immediately followed by one of the parties involved taking a poke at the other.

Re: Don\'t buy a Photon Fusion until....

I still think what really ticked Gandalf off was receiving TWO lights in the same week (about $175. worth) that were defective. Imo-there's the real basis for great frustration and consternation.