LED designer & new to board

Hi all,

Great board you all have here ... just found this recently.

I work in the LED industry and so I enjoy the ideas/comments you all put up here. I think you'd all enjoy my job if you had the chance to work where I do. I wish I could say where I work and what I do (as well as what new projects are in the pipeline!), but for my own security and my company's integrity I cannot.

BTW, the 5W luxeon you guys are discussing is out there as prototypes. I've seen it and there will be quite a bit of design work going on using this device soon - very soon.

The new phosphor laydown method on the white Luxeons is also very good - much better than the old method. The test results are good that I've seen.

I've also read the discussion about the 5W device and how some of you don't like it for flashlight or other battery powered devices. Although I understand your viewpoint, you need to realize LED makers and OEMs are heading toward the general illumination market. A device that makes 100+ lumens lets you get close to the lower wattage incandescents when in multiples of 4, 6 or 8. The money is NOT in specialty markets like flashlights. The LPW (lumens per watt) efficiency will increase, but the main drivers for now are total lumens and LP$ (lumens per dollar). Flashlights will get the benefits of the technology changes, but won't be driving them.

Not that I don't like flashlights - I did design one of the LED light engines for a flashlight you have discussed here on the board. The overall revenue just isn't in these markets for big investment and returns.

I hope you don't think I'm a troll or anything, but I did want to thank you all for this board and the discussions. I'll be taking notes and sitting in the background and maybe get some additional ideas thinking about what you all are talking about.

Take care,

7LWS

Wellcome 7LWS,

as you seem to know a bit about those new Luxeons and also mentioned the new phosper laydown I guess we can expect to see in the white Lamertian / High-Dome might I ask you about the lumen putput we could expect from that white lambertian ? We did see quite some improvement on the red/amber/orange but the spec sheet which was uploaded lately had just the same lumen output for the blue lambertian/HD compared to the batwing/LD - so we fear that as the white is closer to the blue than the red we might also seee no gain in lumen for the white going to the HD versions ? Any comments on this and possible any new rumours about the possible general availability of those white lambertian ?

TIA

Klaus

The new white HD will be out, but the timing is still all tentative - but based on the people at LL I've talked to, this year (earlier for OEMs, later for you if you are buying onesies-twosies from a distributor).

As far as light output, I've only seen proto's and they are as good as advertised. It's hard to say what production will be like until the process is sorted out. Like many of you have done, you can make a couple of nice prototype flashlights easily, but making them in production cheaply and with high quality involves more care in setting up processes. Same for LED production lines.

Although you do mention lumens, you realize the die for both lambertian and batwing produce the same amount, it's only the beam shape that's changed by the dome. And the two are fairly close in beam shape, unlike the batwing issues on 5mm devices. I would guess based on what I've seen so far there are fewer issues between the two styles in the Luxeon products than in some 5mm lines (I've seen some real junk there!).

For the phosphor laydown, the beam is really very good for both pattern and uniform CRI. It's some type of electrodeposition process they use and LL has a fine product with it, if it's manufacturable and cheap enough. I believe this process will help push more LED apps into general illumination (fewer objections to some annoying color fringes on standard products).

Daniel - household lighting = general illumination, so yes, that is where the design efforts are going with these newer devices. But you'll see them first in commercial lighting applications because of cost, later in residential - not unlike CFLs.

BTW, what do you guys pay for Luxeons when you buy them from a distributor (in small quantities)? I'm curious.

7LWS

Greetings 7LWS.

Glad to have your input. Post often. Also, some of us are interested not just in flashlights but also in solar-powered or alternative energy powered lighting sources.

7LWS,

Yes, welcome, and posting on other stuff beyond flashlights welcome. For instance, I replaced my Malibu outdoor lights with LEDs when I found the 7watt bulb was melting through and scorching the wood behind the fixture. Now I've got better light, and no heat problems.

I also have made some industrial light fixtures and accent lighting stuff for home owners. Lots of LED uses beyond flashlights...

Yes, I've seen those lights, but they barely produce any light from what I could tell. Though I have considered getting one just to mess with.

The lights I moded are used as ceiling lights over a walk way around a covered screened in deck. I'm running 8 lights upstairs and eight lights downstairs. Was a total of 112W with the incandecent bulbs, now it only takes 9.6 watts and produces a much better color of light.

7lws glad to have you here.

now we have a person in direct connection with leds to bug.

i hope you enjoy your stay

My question to 7LWS is, are there any competitors to Lumileds in the higher output LED market?

Trying to get a hint from the 7LWS handle as to whether it might be an acronym for something. Guys here are pretty bright, they might be able to uncloak your workplace indentity. Regardless, appreciate any info you provide.

but also geepondy
dont foget that some of the things he may discuss here may be detrimental to his job and/or any projects he may be working on.

i know we all mean well

Thanks for the welcome. LEDs are a great new technology (at least high brightness ones) and it's good to have discussions about technology that changes rapidly...

Lambda, have you seen the LED outdoor lights by Malibu? Last time I was in a local home center they had no less than 7 types/styles, in white and amber. They use solar cells for powering them up. Average around $10/lamp except for the fancy styles.

7LWS

My display name here, 7LWS, is entirely random. No acronym hidden here! Being only 4 characters is easy to remember too.

geepondy, if you are referring to the LED package (the "Barracuda" style of the Luxeon), the answer is no, no one today is a competitor to LL. But I doubt if they'll stay the only player in this market. They just happen to do it well (Piranhas, SnapLEDs, and the Barracudas) and capture the market as a result. But just like Nichia is best in 5mm, as LL is in these other packages, companies are working on newer/better products. Nichia makes the best phosphor for white, a YAG, and makes a lot of money of royalties for it. I don't know if you saw it, but another LED joint venture (Gelcore) introduced a competing phosphor called TAG that is similar to YAG. Competition will help bring prices down for us, and it spurs these new developments. I would expect the same to happen in LED package styles as well - perhaps someday we'll see some company go after the Luxeon with a different package style.

As far as LED die go, LL is the best in the ALINGAP die family because they use a transparent substrate instead of a absorbing substrate. Their process and patents will keep them on top for a while there. INGAN die are a different story, where Nichia is still better in the small die area (.25mm^2) but they haven't worked on the larger die size (1mm^2), so that field is more wide open. I expect LL to try and be the best there, but a lot of companies are working in that area.

And none of this relates to UV, which is the next big change coming in the white field. Some companies believe UV will be the way to go in white, while others are sticking with the 470nm blue for white. It will be very interesting to see how that works out, and another set of phosphors have to be out to make that product usable (and UV filters in the LEDs).

Thanks for the understanding of what I can and cannot say here. What I do say is readily available to anyone researching LEDs, but the specifics of what anyone is doing I leave out. But what is coming and under development, even though you do not know, is very exciting. The next few years will see some great developments for LEDs.

And hopefully for organic LEDs as well (OLEDs).

7LWS

7LWS do you think LEDs will penetrate the general illumination market anytime soon?

With LEDs only currently matching halogens for efficiency, not to mention being a lot more expensive, will the majority of consumers currently purchase LED products over similar incandescents?

Not only that shouldn't high power LEDs (like the 5W Luxeon) be would be much harder to use since the amount of heat reproduce could easily kill the LEDs?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Someguy:
7LWS do you think LEDs will penetrate the general illumination market anytime soon?

With LEDs only currently matching halogens for efficiency, not to mention being a lot more expensive, will the majority of consumers currently purchase LED products over similar incandescents?

Not only that shouldn't high power LEDs (like the 5W Luxeon) be would be much harder to use since the amount of heat reproduce could easily kill the LEDs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someguy,

I'm not sure what your definition of "soon" is, but you will start to see apps during the next year to 2. These won't be residential, so it won't be consumers like us buying them, but businesses. It isn't simply the light bulb cost that matters, but the cost of maintenance and power. That's why traffic signals are attractive in LEDs. Most current applications aren't halogen, so LEDs can compete effectively with incandescents.

LEDs match halogens for efficiency now, but they won't stay the same for long. By this time next year you should see a difference.

But the other key is the application itself. Where a light bulb throws light all over, a LED shines with a 120* angle or less. For light applications needing light in a restricted area, the smaller number of lumens from a LED can be more effectively channeled to give similar illumination with fewer watts. That alone is an efficiency increase.

As far as higher wattage LEDs go, yes the thermal issue is there, but I'm sure it will be managed so the LED lifetime isn't an issue. Any company which doesn't do that will have warranty issues/claims pile up pretty quick.

7LWS

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 7LWS:
And none of this relates to UV, which is the next big change coming in the white field. Some companies believe UV will be the way to go in white, while others are sticking with the 470nm blue for white. It will be very interesting to see how that works out, and another set of phosphors have to be out to make that product usable (and UV filters in the LEDs).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello 7LWS

This is Ken from a China based LED manufacturer. Do you have some more info about the phosphors for UV -> White? The Xbright series of cree have the spec brightness of around 11mW right now and I would like to ask my people to use the Cree UV to make some white for a quick test.

Thanks,

Ken

"In production, Price is everything."

7LWS,

anything you can tell us about those new Nichias which seem to be competing directly with the Luxeons ?

TIA

Klaus

7LWS,

anything you can tell us about those new Nichias which seem to be competing directly with the Luxeons ?

TIA

Klaus

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 7LWS:
I've also read the discussion about the 5W device and how some of you don't like it for flashlight or other battery powered devices. Although I understand your viewpoint, you need to realize LED makers and OEMs are heading toward the general illumination market. A device that makes 100+ lumens lets you get close to the lower wattage incandescents when in multiples of 4, 6 or 8. The money is NOT in specialty markets like flashlights. The LPW (lumens per watt) efficiency will increase, but the main drivers for now are total lumens and LP$ (lumens per dollar). Flashlights will get the benefits of the technology changes, but won't be driving them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This sort of explains why there is not a lot of activity to produce flashlights with the latest technology. The emphasis of these companies is following the path that leads to most profit. However, we all benefit in the end.

Wayne
Elektro Lumens

While I can't say whether or not I knew about the Nichias ahead of time, I will say I'm glad to see competition in this market segment - competition drives prices down for all of us, and I'm like many of you, wanting cheaper and more LED lighting solutions available to choose from.

Ken, for phosphors I'd direct you to companies directly who have phosphors to market - Nichia for one, and it seems Gelcore has a phosphor program in place as well. I don't know if anyone is selling a UV phosphor yet; my guess is no, it's a little early.

And kudos to you guys with these interesting flashlights you build from various parts. You all show a lot of creativity and ingenuity - a pretty bright group, if I may say so (sorry for the bad pun . But seriously, I'm really pleased at the level of creativity you show. You are quite sharp and deserve some applause for making some fascinating prototypes and concepts. I wish more of the flashlight makers employed people like you.

7LWS

is there a forum like this for disucssing LEDs in general/area lighting?

or is it too early?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure what your definition of "soon" is, but you will start to see apps during the next year to 2. These won't be residential, so it won't be consumers like us buying them, but businesses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats more of what I had in mind. I can possibly see them used in very dangerous places where low-wattage metal halides are used (for VERY long burn times) but I couldn't picture your average Joe going to Walmart and purchasing a $200 20x Luxeon bulb to light up a room anytime soon. Maybe in 4 or 5 years.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That's why traffic signals are attractive in LEDs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But what about white lighting applications? Coloured LEDs are infinitely more efficienct than filtered incandescents, but its definately not the same case for full-spectrum light.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Where a light bulb throws light all over, a LED shines with a 120* angle or less<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Awh come on... a good reflector is all that is required for spot lighting!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>LEDs match halogens for efficiency now, but they won't stay the same for long<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is exactly what we're waiting for! Well this and lower prices as well.