HDS Systems Arc 4 Knockoff

HDS systems is now taking preorders for their Arc 4 knockoffs. It looks to me like they disasembled the Arc 4, and then made changes to improve it? The Basic model gets 40 lumens at high.

http://www.hdssystems.com/EdcBasic.html

My questions: how can they legally do this? Wouldn't the Arc 4 have copyright laws preventing this?


Also, is HDS a legitimate company that backs up their products with good customer service?

Would I be safe if I preordered from this company? Has anyone else ever bought their products before???

Their lights look nice, I just don't understand how they are able to copy the Arc 4 and make "improvements" on it so easily legally?

.357, you have some catching up to do, mate! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Think the thread(s) are in the Arc thread, but careful not to stir up too much murk in the still waters... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

All I can say is, competition is great for us flashaholics! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif

I think the safest way to say this is that HDS and Arc previously had a relationship. I'm not sure if they still do.

It appears that when Arc and HDS parted ways, they each took the same design and started making their own improvements to the light.

Besides working with Arc, HDS' main claim to fame is the Action Light. I think Craig has a review of it on his web site. So, they have been around for a while and have been working with cool LED technology for a while.

As Stanley points out, Arc and HDS going their different ways got some coverage on CPF and it got out of hand. It would be good if that didn't happen again. Sometimes sleeping dogs are best left sleeping, and all that...

-john

Actually most of the electrical design was in HDS's (Henry) hands before they started working with ARC.

Henry (HDS) and Action Light (Henry's design) do pre-date ARC by years, 1997, ARC is a 2001 company.

Henry even helped defend ARC against MagLite, so I am told.

[ QUOTE ]
John N said:
I think the safest way to say this is that HDS and Arc previously had a relationship. I'm not sure if they still do.

It appears that when Arc and HDS parted ways, they each took the same design and started making their own improvements to the light.

Besides working with Arc, HDS' main claim to fame is the Action Light. I think Craig has a review of it on his web site. So, they have been around for a while and have been working with cool LED technology for a while.

As Stanley points out, Arc and HDS going their different ways got some coverage on CPF and it got out of hand. It would be good if that didn't happen again. Sometimes sleeping dogs are best left sleeping, and all that...

-john

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Okay, I wasn't aware they were once the same company (or related in some way). I don't want to open up a can of worms.

So, let me ask one other set of questions not related to the relationship with arc;

Is HDS a safe company to order from, are their products backed well, and does anyone recommend preordering their basic model? I like the fact that the basic model doesn't have a ton of useless feautures that the Arc 4 has (i.e. the options menu).

The ARC4 is basically a miniaturized and customized Action Light III, to my understanding.

[ QUOTE ]
357 said:
Is HDS a safe company to order from, are their products backed well, and does anyone recommend preordering their basic model? I like the fact that the basic model doesn't have a ton of useless feautures that the Arc 4 has (i.e. the options menu).

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt confident enough about HDS that I preordered their Action Light. Note, they indicate they will not charge your credit card until they ship.

-john

HDS Systems edc has too much knurling, miss match tail cap, and price is not lower than an Arc 4. Arc is going to offer simplier less function versions soon. Only advantage of the HDS is the extra 10 lumens. I don't think Arc has to worry about the HDS Systems edc unless HDS Systems drops their price significantly.

Deleted, accidental double post

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nonbox said:
HDS Systems edc has too much knurling, miss match tail cap, and price is not lower than an Arc 4. Arc is going to offer simplier less function versions soon. Only advantage of the HDS is the extra 10 lumens. I don't think Arc has to worry about the HDS Systems edc unless HDS Systems drops their price significantly.

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Knurling is a matter of opinion, it's your option to buy what you want. It does put out 30% more lumens, which is significant. Efficiency is rumored to be better, we will see.

[ QUOTE ]
357 said:
Okay, I wasn't aware they were once the same company (or related in some way). I don't want to open up a can of worms.

So, let me ask one other set of questions not related to the relationship with arc;

Is HDS a safe company to order from, are their products backed well, and does anyone recommend preordering their basic model? I like the fact that the basic model doesn't have a ton of useless feautures that the Arc 4 has (i.e. the options menu).

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should read this thread. You are asking questions that have been beaten into the ground, and there are no clear answers. It depends on who you are asking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

If the HDS Systems is better why is everyone buying out the Arc 4 rather than the HDS Systems? Arc 4 were on back order for a long time and there was a long waiting list for them. Now everyone is awaiting the Arc 5. HDS Systems better work on their marketing because there are thousands of Arc 4 threads on this board but very few about the HDS Systems.

People are buying HDS's lights. That is totally incorrect that everybody is buying Arc4's and nobody is buying HDS lights. They are all pre-orders though, so nobody can actually get one yet.

Arc has their own section here on CPF, whereas HDS does not. Many of the Arc threads are repetitive. HDS has one thread about them, which coves a whole lot. There are not "thousands" of threads about the Arc4. The whole Arc section only has about 3,000 threads, and the majority are probably about lights other than the Arc4.

1) To a large extent, "better" is a matter of opinion. Some people will like Arc's improvements better, some will like HDS'

2) Since the Arc flashlight was sold under the Arc name, and Peter, the head of Arc had a signficant presence here, Arc is very well know and respected here. Since Henry, AKA HDS was behind the scenes, people don't know him or his company as well.

3) We really don't know how many people are buying what light.

-john

[ QUOTE ]
357 said:
Is HDS a safe company to order from, are their products backed well, and does anyone recommend preordering their basic model? I like the fact that the basic model doesn't have a ton of useless feautures that the Arc 4 has (i.e. the options menu).

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HDS has made numerous lights for caving (or "spelunking" if you prefer) that have been very well-regarded. Caving lights absolutely have to work because you are hosed if your light fails on you underground.

HDS designed the guts of the Arc4. I believe that the Arc4 is simply another incarnation of HDS's standard products - a highly configurable multifunction light source that can do the work of several when space/weight are at a premium.

The HDS vs ARC "saga" has been well-covered in recent months if you really want to walk through all the dirty laundry being aired in public.

The HDS Ultimate looks to me like a great light, pretty well perfect for EDC. Anyone intereseted in organizing a group buy?

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nonbox said:
HDS Systems edc has too much knurling, miss match tail cap, and price is not lower than an Arc 4. Arc is going to offer simplier less function versions soon. Only advantage of the HDS is the extra 10 lumens. I don't think Arc has to worry about the HDS Systems edc unless HDS Systems drops their price significantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Basic version is $120 (much less than the Arc 4). Plus, I don't think it it has the options menu (which I consider a complete waste of memory, since I never use it on my Arc 4s). Nice and simple EDC. It also has more lumens than the Arc 4.


The Extreme is $160 (20 less than the Arc 4) and it has most of the menu options (for those who do like it). Essentially an Arc 4 with more lumen output, and 7 more brightness settings.


The Ultimate is $195 (15 more than the Arc 4). Twice the lumens at high (60 lumens). All the menu functions that a tech person would want. 23 brightness levels. Essentially, the outpout of a low powered 5 watt Luxeon in the size of an Arc 4.


I don't like all the knurdling either, but how can this flashlight be "overpriced"? It gives MORE lumens that the Arc 4 in all versions, 2 of the versions are CHEAPER, and it even has more brightness options (except the much cheaper basic model). If anything, it seems to me that this light is a LOT better of a buy than the Arc 4?

HDS obviously has ARC in it's sights. To target such a well-regarded company takes chutzpah IMO.

If the HDC lights live up to expectations, and that IS a big IF, it may very well spell the demise of ARC. Such is the way of capitalism. Ain't it cool? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

First, this presumes that Arc would do nothing to respond and that HDS has everything together in terms of customer service etc...

Defending market position is about 6X easier than trying to take it away. It would be foolish for HDS to go straight at Arc - they would lose. They would be smarter to lead out with their headlamp and try a flanking move - Arc can't compete there.

Unfortunately, I think we will see HDS go straight (because this is probably as much about **** and vinegar as it is about good business practices) at them which means that in short order, there will still be only one competitor in this market niche. Some competition for Peter would mean he would have some incentive to drop his prices faster.

Just my $0.02.

J