Why no regulated Photon?

The electronics seem to be tiny (in the Arc AAA for example) and I'm wondering why they can't be squeezed into a Photon.

Their new Freedom light has some whiz bang electrionics but I'd be happy with a on-off button, regulated light. I think I'd happily pay $24.95 for such a light.

Perhaps a 2-3 second delay or a rapid double tap to turn it on to prevent accidental activations would be possible.

Arc is gone and I'm looking ahead.

Because they sell them anyway?

-john

Huh? The Photons I have aren't regulated. They just go through the gentle glide slope of death.

I'm talking about a lean mean Photon II. Not the party light or the Freedom light but something that takes either a prolonged hold or double tap to activate, it'll run regulated at a near constant output until the batts give it up.

The button lithium cells have a fairly flat discharge curve, all things considered.

They will put regulation into their NEXT range of lights .... just to keep us all buying them !

I think John means that they sell plenty of them without, so why would they? I would agree with you on the regulation part, but I do like my freedom and haven't (yet) had the accidental on prob. I'm sure it's coming though! A regulated freedom would be great!!!!!! Doug /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Is the enough room in the average keyfob-sized LED light for a meaningful regulation circuit? And, as JohnN hinted at, does the market care?

Coin cells are generally current-limited as-is. The most I've seen a coin cell put out is about 60 mA into a short (meter). Add the theoretical 1-ohm "resistance" of a LED and you'll get much less than that.

If they were regulated that would bump up the price considerably then no one will buy. After all they were designed to be as simple as possible.

For a Photon, An Inductor based Regulator circuit wont be a good idea. even 95% Inductor circuits would be a costly affair.... Size of Inductor will also matter...

For a Photon, I think a capacitor based Switching Regulator is required. It can then convert 3 Volts from a CR2032 battery (instead of current 2 CR2016) to a proper 3.5 or 3.7 Volts.

The efficiencies are a minimum of 96% to 99.9% !!!... ooh the cost burden... would be less than $2 (including everything, actually it requires only 2 or max 3 external components, which again are SMALL in size.... ) there are many other super efficient chips available from LT, Mircel,National and Most Importantly... Sipex.... If LRI Plans to make these in say quantities of 10K then the burden will still be less may be as low as $1 (depends)...

Look this thread for more information...

Also visit http://www.sipex.com/products/power/charge.htm .. Look at the efficiencies at 25mA, This should Ammuse you guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 99.90% !!!

http://www.sipex.com/products/pdf/sp6828_6829.pdf is the suggested thing here from my side ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


If you open up the Photon Freedom, You will realize that there is AMPLE space for the SOT-23 Package along with the very few external components that the converter chip requirs 3 MAX !!!


Also The Photon will run Longer .... because the capacity of cr2032 is about 250 mAH and where as 2016 is less than 90 mAH ....

Is LRI, Photon Guys, Bryan Avery, David Allen (of LRI) Listening / Reading this ???

Why they dont have anything like this... go figure !!!



Umm... with 99% Efficiency, assuming Flat discharge curve for 250 mAH CR2032 Lithium, 1 Nichia LED (which they use already) Run on 20 - 25 mA Should last.. what MORE Than 8 HOURS at FULL POWER??? eeh ?.... Further more CR2032's are very CHEAP and EASILY AVAILABLE !!! (my local electrical store guy is selling them @ 0.14$ a Cell (Maxwell Brand) !!! i got about 100 CR2032's for about $10 from him /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ... use them with other devices that i have built /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks & Regards,
ViReN

Shhh don't yell so loud, they might hear you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Have you tried building any of these?

I suspect the market in general does not actually care. Your average un-enlightened lighting user already thinks paying $10 for a little keychain light is ridiculous (yes, I've heard it before.. that's why we call them the un-enlightened). They want something cheap, cheerful and disposable that's made in the far east for pennies on the dollar and that's sold for $2.49 at the supermarket checkout. Regulated? They'd have to look it up in a dictionary.

Most people would have a hard time telling a 5mm getting dimmer. I've carried a Photon 1 that's been used for quite a while and if I didn't do a side-by-side with the ArcAAA and the CMG Inf Ultra, I couldn't tell it's dim. Still, it's bright enough to get the job done so I'm not changing cells yet.

Hi Kevin,

Err... i m very SOrry if any one was offended by the bolds... but i wanted atleast they hear.... may be if they do.. make changes and try to have another Marketing Stunt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.. ooh sorry again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif but... i could not resist....

If there is an objection for the bold letters, i will edit the post and remove the bold tag...

hope we r kool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ViReN

No no not at all, it was just a humorous comment because some light manufacturers are known to read CPF and if they hear you, maybe we might see your recommendation in a new Photon. We're cool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Viren,
I couldn't agree more with you. I hope LRI is Listening. Doug /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hmm... We can just say that Hope They Listen.....

or may be we go to Peter G. ... and suggest him about this *New* Project /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif along with the others that he is going to carry out... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Atleast He is the one who appriciates Quality & Knows in depth about Regulation (i hope so) ...

ViReN

Runtime, consistent brightness, mutltiple brightness levels, etc don't sell small keychain lights. Low cost, and attractive/durable housings seem to be the primary features demanded.

This is not surprising given the highly intermittent use of keyring lights. Given the staggering cost differences between the wholesale cost and resale price of button cells, most users seem likely to toss them whenever they finally run dry.

I agree fully with idleprocess, its true about what ever he has said.

May be we just have a Photon with a ON-OFF switch (Electronic) and the space saved by doing so could be utilized by a small DC-DC Converter (switched capacitor for high efficiency & less size) and in doing so we will be getting the light output almost constant bright /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .

Further more The cost of 2016 cell is 3-6 times that of 2032 cell (which is more commonly available)

Thanks & Regards,
ViReN

It won't work. The maximum power deliverable from a DC power source occurs when the load resistance equals the battery internal resistance. For CR20xx cells this is ~40mA which is already where the Photon is operating. There is no switching regulator treatment that will get more power out of the battery(s). Now for AA cells with 0.2ohm internal resistance, it's another story. Even there, one should note that when operating at the maximum delivered power point, half of your power is dissipated within the battery by this internal impedance. This is why good NiMH cells will beat alkalines at duration for current draw over ~1/2Amp. They have much lower internal resistance so less internal loss.

chanik,

I agree with you. but if you consider, mAH Capacities of CR2016 & CR2032 Cells, You will know that in Same Space (overall) the CR2032 is able to pack More Punch (mAH).

Also, I Understand your statement about Internal Resistance. In Photon's we are using 2 CR2016 Batteries that means we are having TWICE the Internal Resistance and hence TWICE the Losses. Dont you think so?

According to Datasheets
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets/library/primary/lithium_coin/cr2016.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets/library/primary/lithium_coin/cr2025.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets/library/primary/lithium_coin/cr2032.pdf

CR2016 = 80 mAH (Maxwell has about 90 mAH)
CR2032 = 225 mAH (Maxwell has about 250 mAH)

So Thats like 2.8125 TIMES the capacity of CR2016 Cells, Now Considering Capacitor based Charge Pump Drivers, where efficiency is about 99.9% Where are we loosing anything at all ???

Its Definately less than the Internal Resistance Losses of 2 CR2016 Cells Isnt it chanik?

This was all thought & Thats the reason, we felt a need of a Regulated Photon Light.... Further More, Who Doesent like a Regulated Light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, if you think of runtimes, Assuming LED is driven at 22 mA With 99.9% Efficiency from a CR2032 Battery, What will be the Runtime (atleast Theoritical).... 10 HOURS.... but lets say practically it will be 8 Hours (assuming various losses etc).... Now tell me Wont this be a GOOD thing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Especially when we are talking about the size of Photon Freedom / Photon Micro III....

If I had enough Facalities at my disposal, I Sure would have developed something of that size with REGULATION /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif but.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Too bad, I dont have those kind of facalities with me. I wonder if anyone would be interested in making such a light....

Thanks & Regards,
ViReN

It's a valid argument, but unfortuantely the CR2032 has about the same internal impedance as the 2016 (one would expect it to be lower) Although it has more capcity, the CR2032 can DELIVER only half the power as a pair of 2016. I've tried it. We'd love to switcher regulate a Photon and the extar circuitry could certainly fit. Damn batteries just won't cooperate.

Hello Chanik,

How come it cannot deliver more as compared to 2 2016 cells ? Its surprising observation that you have made.

Its ok, if we "still" have same internal resistance as that of 2016, our losses are comparitively less (by half). isnt it...

Do you have any clue, why is it doing like this?

CR2032 are far far more common than that of CR2016... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ViReN