So in my honest opinion citizenship test

should be base on Billy Joel's song "we didn't start the fire"... I looked over the citizenship test book and there is bunch of crap in there. I mean stuff you have to know regardless but still stuff that won't give you any knowledge of american culture. I think there should randomly choose ten phrases/events from that song and ask people to eleborate.

Matt

As a college student, the new citizens can answer all the basic questions even their kids while most americans sit on their asses with dumb looks.

I think all citizens should be required to take a test like that before getting a driver license or ID card renewed or even vote.

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cobb said:
As a college student, the new citizens can answer all the basic questions even their kids while most americans sit on their asses with dumb looks.

I think all citizens should be required to take a test like that before getting a driver license or ID card renewed or even vote.

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Agree to that. Why only the foreign born citzens are requized to take such test? I think it should be equal for everyone and I won't be surprised a lot of people will fail that.

It might be nice if more Americans actually read the U.S. Constitution, for a start. Or could tell you what century the Civil War was in. Or could understand that with all of the problems we may or may not have, we are still the luckiest people on the face of the planet.

Ok well let me explain my self. I saw what my parents had to do for their citizenship test. I looked it over and there were questions about dates, constitution (and terminology from constitution) as well as general working rules about our gov't. Which is fine. Average american would be able to answer half of them. But there was nothing about culture. I mean you can walk out of there with knowledge about constitution and our founding fathers but still have no idea about our culture.

So the Billy Joel song contains the phrases that define out culture. Yeah well it mentions american dream, vietnam, korea, cold war, icons, trouble, problems...

The current citizneship test reminds me of high school where you always had this kid who knew his material in and out. He would ace every exam and do calculus when you were still dong you algebra. Yet put this kid in a group of people to talk about stuff and he can't. Because his knowledge is restricted and tunnel like. No free thinking, no branching out just plain dry facts and no background info.

Matt

A lot of people, myself included, just aren't interested in many aspects of American pop culture, nor is a knowledge of them necessary to make one a good citizen. That's why those types of questions aren't on the citizen test. I'm a second or third generation American (depending upon which side you look at). I do know Billy Joel is a singer, but I couldn't name one song he wrote. I never even heard of Britney Spears until my niece was interested in her, and for the longest time I thought she was black for some reason (her last name, perhaps?). I really don't know much about most of the current actors or actresses other than how they look and some of their names. I'm not at all familiar with music of any kind because I've never really enjoyed it or saw any point to it. And I don't see how it's important that I should know any of this stuff, whether for a citizenship test or for my daily life. I can and have talked for hours with people on a variety of other topics, whether political, scientific, engineering, economic, etc. Not dry facts, but how these things work, and how they interrelate to one another. Topics like that are all far more useful and relevant to me being a good citizen than a knowledge of some lines in a Billy Joel song is, or other such trivia.

I pride myself on an extensive knowledge of many things, but pop culture, celebrity gossip, pop music, or sports are areas which fall more into the hobby classification. If you're interested in them, wonderful, but I don't see why it's any more important for an average person to know who Billy Joel is than to know what a TX0J bin Luxeon is. In fact, I wish fewer people were interested in trivia so that the news organizations would have some relevant news. Plenty of things which Americans should be much better informed about, especially the damage their cars cause, but aren't because the news distracts them with pictures of Janet Jackson's breast or some other inconsequential story of the moment. Remember the Romans and how they used bread and circuses to distract the general populace while those in power raped the riches of the empire, resulting in its eventual downfall? Guess what, it's happening today. I really wish everyone had to take a citizenship test, demonstrate a certain level of literacy, and show a general understanding of topics related to government, before being allowed to vote. You might actually have candidates who talk about relevant issues instead of mudslinging.

If you bothered to look at the song you would get my point.

So you are telling me that Vietnam war, Korean War, Cold War are not important? Also who Reagan, Nixon, CLinton or JFK was is not improtant either? This is not about trivia but working knowlege of "current" history. Subject and knowledge you take for granted bacause you lived part of it but others who just came here have no clue.

Matt

If you meant knowing something about these historical events (and others) then I agree that it's important also. It's just when you mentioned a knowledge of American culture (as opposed to American history) I assumed exactly that. And the fact that it was in a pop artist's song which I'm only vaguely familiar with led me to believe that the phrases/events mostly had to do with American pop culture. Most of American culture is American pop culture, unless you're thinking about Native American culture which goes back some millenia. Since pop culture changes on a continual basis, I didn't (and don't) see how it's relevant to citizenship to be aware of it.

The list of items mentioned - choruses removed so that it's fair use /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif As you can see, a lot of it is beyond "Pop Culture" and is more like "Modern American History, including trends that were significant"


Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I", and "The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower, vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, dacron
Dien Bien Phu and "Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, "Peter Pan", Elvis Presley, Disneyland
Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Khrushchev
Princess Grace, "Peyton Place", trouble in the Suez
Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac
Sputnik, Chou En-Lai, "Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball
Starkweather, homicide, children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly, "Ben-Hur", space monkey, Mafia
hula hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no go
U2, Syngman Rhee, payola and Kennedy
Chubby Checker, "Psycho", Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex
JFK, blown away, Birth control,
Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune" , Sally Ride, heavy metal, suicide
Foreign debts, homeless vets, AIDS, Crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shores, China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

I can't believe that people who know anything about American history are advocating poll tests. Not only are they illegal for good reason, but they are totally opposed to the ideals that make our nation so great. Perhaps after we bring back poll tests we can also institute poll taxes again. Then we can take the right to vote from women and blacks. Finally, we can get back to our roots where you must be a white male land owner to have a voice in our representative democracy. We would only have to get rid of a few ammendments to the Constitution and countless laws...

Our nation is so great because everyone has a voice. Once we start taking that voice from people who aren't literate, don't know history, or aren't up on popular culture, then we are no better than any of the other fascist regimes throughout the worlds that impose the will of the elite on those that are less fortunate. The Civil Rights Movement was a great thing for this nation... speak carefully about measures that would set it back.

-Randy

I would agree about "pop culture" being semi meaningless but I do know of that song, there are other ways to learn historical knowlage . I was in special education classes so for me learning that stuff was a chalange and still is. one of the costs of gaining that knowlage is "pop culture" had to take a back seat to more intersing things
Any way after mentioning billy joel's song I just happened to think of another one.
Mike and the Mechanics, "Silent Running"
I was listening to that on what I belive was a Clear Channel owned radio station just after 9-11 happened. The disc jocky lady paused after that and then said that song had new meaning now and they have never played it since. An independent radio station still plays it but thats the only station I have heard it on now.
Personaly I belive that making imigration harder and then limitting civil liberties for every one that did make in to be going down the wrong path.

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double_r76 said:
Our nation is so great because everyone has a voice. Once we start taking that voice from people who aren't literate, don't know history, or aren't up on popular culture, then we are no better than any of the other fascist regimes throughout the worlds that impose the will of the elite on those that are less fortunate.

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While I agree a knowledge of history or pop culture certainly aren't needed to vote, it's reasonable to expect a person to be literate. How can they properly decide based on issues if they can't read? TV and radio are notoriously biased, and don't cover issues in detail the way printed matter does. Also, how can people physically vote if they can't even read the names of those they're voting for? If one wishes to partake in democratic processes, then being literate certain isn't an ominous hurdle to cross. There are few excuses these days for not being able to read or write. And if one lacks the intelligence to acquire the ability to read, then I can't for the life of me see how they could reasonably decide which candidate to pick. Many cases where those in the polls helping an illiterate, and often mentally slow, voter influenced the outcome by saying things like this is a "D", just press all the levers with "D" next to them. Or an "R" if they felt so inclined.

deleted-accidental double post

Yes. Literacy SHOULD be required!

And, since we are pretty much ALL immigrents at SOME time in our past... and all speak and read ENGLISH as the official language of the USA, Aviation etc...

Every voter should damn well vote in English!

And you ought to be able to name AT LEAST the current President and Vice President and the two members of the Senate!!!

And I don't think for a moment that we should make immigration harder... not at all what I'm thinking.

Make ILLEGAL Immigration lethal!!!

I am all for making illegal immigration lethal

best Idiea I have heard in a long time

Man this spun out of control pretty quick. I just wanted to point out that you should not sweat the test to fit in as most americans do not know the stuff themselves and SHOULD be tested on it every now and then before making a decision that could affect all of us.

This was my opinion to the starters opinion.

I dont care much for the pop culture or that related bullshoot either. I do like history and took 2 semester of US and world history, 4 semesters in total. Myself, I rather read tech manuals and specs to truck mounted aerial equipment or my current and past business books for my degrees in college.

If you get a chance, read books on our founding fathers and do some thinking outside the box. Most of those guys rode horses into their 70s. Washington cross a river in a snow storm that closed most of DC a few years ago. The original constitution contained graphic and violent language of what the founding fathers wanted to do tothe kind and queen family in england and their children. The first roosevelt was semi disabled and nearly blind to the point he could not join the service. He got premission to lead a band of guys into war on horse back somewhere.

Sorry about my fuzzness. I use to take 13 different pain killers for little over a year and erased lots of details of what I learned. They were prescription and since I quit when discovering steroids work even better at managing my pain with my muscular condition.

The concepts to learn and live by are the Constitution and the words written on the Statue of Liberty. Basic tolerance and fair-play, with a major dose of the Golden Rule. If anyone could demonstrate that they understood and actually practiced these ideas, I'd say, "Welcome."

Well it never ceases to amaze me how quickly discussions get hijacked.

Matt

Matt,

I didn't mean to hijack your thread (not sure who that was directed toward), but I felt that it was very important to respond to the position taken by three people preceding me that there should be a test for voting rights. Apparently the 15th Ammendment, 24th Ammendment, and Voters' Rights Act were wrong?

Many times, people are not illiterate by choice or due to lack of intelligence... they are often a product of their disadvantaged environment which, by the way, will never improve if they are denied a voice in our democratic process.

I do think that our citizesnship vetting process should have some vigorous testing, but I am weary of including popular cultures and extensive historical knowledge. Culture varies widely from Florida to Maine to Hawaii, and it would be very difficult to find universally needed materials. Also, the importance of history to every citizen to be a productive member of society is questionable. I can't think of a single instance where my knowledge of the Korean War would serve me to make some judgement call as a responsible citizen. I'm currently working towards my Masters degree after serving in the active duty army for over seven years. This makes me appreciate the fact that full knowledge by all citizens would be an ideal situation, but practically impossible. As such, we must make the best use of our time and resources, which means that many people focus on their careers, families, or other priorities before they even begin to think about history, politics, or popular culture. I love politics, but most people don't... that's their right, but not a reason to deny them citizenship.

Even further, just because I was fortunately raised by my middle-class mother (who happened to be a English teacher) does not mean that my political voice should be louder than someone who received a substandard education and cannot read at a level to conduct policy analysis and proposals from political candidates for public office. Just a though... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I love you guys!

-Randy

Psst, I hate to burst y'all's bubble, but the US doesn't have an official language. English is just the most common is all.