Gore-Tex or Wool?

What do you like better? Do you wear any gore tex lined clothing or footwear in the winter? What about wool hats or caps?

New Jersey's winters aren't bad, but I prefer to stay toasty. I usually wear gortex lined boots and a wool hat, but have just switched to smartwool. They take the itching out of wool sort to speak.

can't beat Gore-Tex lined wool. or Cabela's "Dry Plus" lined wool.

they're two different things. Gore-Tex is for waterproofness and breathability. wool is an insulator that just happens to be naturally wind/water resistant.

but you can't really pick between them. you can have both for each of their respective properties. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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BlindedByTheLite said:
but you can't really pick between them. you can have both for each of their respective properties. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Typical flashaholic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

BBTL, I half-agree with your comment about wool. I don't think of wool as being wind/water resistant. If you've worn a wool sweater on a windy day, you can feel the air flowing through your garments. It is true, however, that wool's microscopic structure traps small amounts of air. This air acts as a temperature buffer between your body and the outside (much like a neoprene wet suit works). Even when wet, wool will still have empty "air pockets" that will continue to work as temperature buffers (unlike other materials that conduct heat directly away from your body when wet). Wool is a great insulator, I agree. Not very good as a wind/water barrier, though.

I often wear a combination of Gore-Tex shell and wool sweater for winter conditions. You're right, Lumenous, "Smartwool" does not make me itch. Do you know if it's a natural or synthetic fiber?

According to Smartwool they use natural wool that undergoes a "special" process to make it "smart" so that it wicks moisture and doesn't shrink like natural wool...and of course is itch free.

So it's one of those "natural synthetics". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

EDIT: Deleted my idiotic comment.

While Smartwool may have undergone a "special" process, I think it is basically a high quality Merino wool. My impression is high quality wools don't tend to itch. I think Smartwool is pretty much natural (I think they just want you to think they did something "special" to it!).

I've grown addicted to Smartwool socks and wear them year round. Great stuff.

I prefer Patagonia Capilene as a top layer since it is VERY warm but isn't bulky and dries very fast. Layering works well with a silkweight next to the skin and the a layer of expedition weight on top of that. A layer of fleece, then some good *unlined* 3 layer Gore-Tex (I like ArcTeryx products for those last two layers).

As far as hats, I like the Columbia Kazoo Hat. It's very warm and wraps around your ears, chin and back of your neck. It also fits nicely under a hood. Looks kinda dumb, but then again, warm beats fashion.

I like hard, smooth leather boots, like the Vasqe Sundowners. It turns out these boots are Gore-Tex lined, and it is supposedly to wick moisture away from your feat. I feel this is somewhat of a gimick, but the boots are good. I tend to avoid Gore-Tex boots for wet activities. As a liner it is fine.

As BBTL says, you can't pick between them. They compliment one another!

-john

Ditto to the above....

Wool and Goretex work together. Goretex provides the wind and water/proofness. Wool provides the warm insulating layer underneath.

One nice thing about that combination is that the goretex layer can be used alone as a light jacket/windbreaker. Or the wool can be used alone as sweater on a slightly cooler day. Together they make a very warm and windproof cold-weather beater.

Goretex, however, is accurately criticized as working poorly in heavy downpours. Goretex depends on a humidity differential between the inside and outside of the goretex in order for the micro-moisture to migrate out away from the body. During a downpour, the humidity is high both inside and outside the goretex layer...so the migration doesn't work right and you get wet inside. But for wind and light rain/snow it's great.

For a better inside warmth layer, you might consider a polar-fleece synthetic layer over wool. Wool is great but will absorb water and lose approximately 50% of it's insulating ability. A polar-fleece layer will lose only maybe 10% of it's insulating abilities when wet- and can be wrung dry pretty easily. Of course, a cotton insulating layer when wet will lose 100% of it's insulating ability and actively suck away your remaining body heat.

I used to be a HARD-CORE wool guy, but recently I switched over to synthetics and I'm pleased with the change. (Oh, and yeah, I think the question should be "wool or fleece" because Gore-Tex is not an insulator and can be used with either).

I have a Patagonia R3 jacket and R2 vest and I love them. Mostly I love the lightness of the fleece over the wool. Neither wool nor fleece blocks the wind very well, but the fleece is lighter and dries faster. It's also a nightmare in a fire, though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Most important thing: cotton is not just a poor insulator--in very cold conditions, it WILL get wet and it WILL suck heat away from your body. Cotton should have no place in your layering system. But of course, it's great to wear to work and I routinely wear cotton cloths under my fleece and shell, but if I am going into the woods I wear absolutely no cotton. Period. Not even briefs. Cotton is a nightmare in really cold weather.

I am not a fan of Gore-Tex. I have had coats, gloves, pants, boots and gaiters made with it, I have used it in extreme outdoor adventure situations and I used to sell it. My conclusion is that in the real world, Gore-Tex performs no better than inexpensive urethane-coated nylon because Gore-Tex is not noticeably more breathable and in some circumstances it may not be as waterproof either. In my observation, the only significant breathability that occurs with any of these products is with the air that moves in and out of the garment through the major openings. I consider Gore-Tex to be a waste of money. I have a $25 coated nylon rain coat that I found at Wal-Mart that equals or outperforms any Gore-Tex rain coat I have ever tried.

If you need real waterproofness, go with coated nylon. If you need windproof breathability, go with uncoated nylon or polyester. Some of the breathable uncoated products, particularly the polyester ones, provide a surprising level of water repellency that is practically rain proof for light conditions or high activity levels.

As for wool, as mentioned by some others, I consider it to be an insulating layer rather than a shell material and I prefer synthetic fleece, but wool can work very well. Wool is my choice for socks.

I have to say I lean more towards wool. I have lots of jackets and outerwear. I have heavy cotton canvas such as the Walls and Carhart variety, but I also have things like Pendelton wool shirts and military Navy Pea coats. In fact, Friday I am picking up my new Filson style 82 double Mackinaw Coat, in forest green color.


I like the all weather performance of GoreTex, like if I think I might get rained on, for example, and I even bought a black jacket late last winter. However, for warmth, I grab the wool first thing. Filson says, "Because the Double Mack is wool, you'll stay warm even when wet, and you won't get overheated even during strenuous work." But I just don't like the idea of getting my wool coat all wet. I have also used Filson's garment wax to treat heavy canvas Walls coats to give them that same water repellency.

Though I never spent any time doing winter camping or anything like that, I was subject to some short term severe weather when growing up and living and working in the Chicago area.

I had a gore-tex rain/wind protector with a hood and it was long enough to hang down below by butt and could be cinched up around my legs to hold it down in heavy winds or rains. Under that I wore a light fleece jacket. The combination of the 2 was adequate for most normal conditions. When it got really cold, or if I was going to be out for a long time in it I'd add a wool sweater and pants to the mix. When doing heavy exercise outside that was almost too much, but any layer could be removed to accommodate as conditions changed.

I also didn't find the gore-tex that much better than the regular nylon stuff. I was able to get the jacket from an outlet mall at a considerably reduced price, and so I have no problem using it. I still have it probably 9 years later and it's still in great condition. So buying a name brand quality product does generally mean that you get what you pay for. I also liked it better than the inexpensive coated nylon jacket that I had strictly for it's feel. The Gore-tex raincoat was less stiff and flexed better overall. But that may just have been the specific kind of cheap nylon stuff I had.

For a hat I always wore a lycra/thinsulate type hat. Those big wool things only work if there is no wind or if you pull up your hood tight, and then they itch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The tighter, smaller synthetic had was much nicer than my old wool one. I think for a hat the synthetic materials can work better.

I must add that an umbrella or a poncho beats Gore-tex in the tropics. It can get so hot (even in a downpour) that you'll sweat your (insert whatever here) off when wearing Gore-tex, regardless of how breathable it claims to be.

James S beat me to it...
My $.02 about caps.. The Cabelas "Watch Cap" is a synthetic material, very light but snugs over your head and ears without itching like a wool cap would. They are usually with the black colored insulated underclothing in the Cabelas catalogue.. never seen them priced more than $10.00, and they work great under ball caps, too, since they are thin.
The Patagonia synthetic caps I've had over the years work well, too, but are thicker. I have been swimming in these before, in a "hot spring" in the wintertime, and snow skiing, and both varieties seem to work well wet.

I have not used any wool products myself but this is what I do when I am in the midst of a brutal cold NYC winter. I start with under armor cold gear (layer 1). I toggle between a polartec 200 or 300 fleece overall bib and or pullover top (depending on the severity of the cold) (layer 2). I then top it off with my Gen 2 ECWCS Gore-Tex parka and trouser(layer 3).

For footwear I use Matterhorn USMC Gore-Tex combat boots. Thor-lo Boot padded boot socks.

For the head and hands, a Polartec Fleece skully cap or Gore-Tex Wool night watchman's cap. Polartec windstopper fleece cloves with Gore-Tex Shells. I also use a Afghan Shemagh (wrap able scarf).

Of course this is all totally modular. You can add or omit accordingly. This also is a basic set up. I have used a much more complex layering system for EXTREME conditions.


So as you can see, I like Gore-Tex and Fleece.

I use Smartwool next to my skin, Polartec fleece for more insulation, and I have a Marmot precip shell. I don't use thick wool socks anymore. Fleece socks over Smartwool sock liners work better, and are lighter.

A couple things about fleece: There is an enormous difference in quality between, say Polartec, and cheap off the shelf fleece. You get what you pay for. I also don't use microfleece. I believe it's too tightly knit to promote proper breathability.

I'm very warm natured and perspire very easily. I simply can't wear a waterproof non breatheable shell or jacket - for me it's like walking into a steam room. I find that GoreTex makes a big difference for me. Shoes too.

BTW, I understand that the patent on GoreTex recently expired, so we should expect a noticeable difference in pricing in breatheable clothing in the not too distant future.

I'm a Smartwool addict, have close to two dozen pairs of their socks of various types. Not only do they perform perfectly in all respects, wearing them makes me feel like I'm having a foot massage. I'm not kidding, they feel great.

Does anyone wear wickingn liners under wool anymore? When I was a wee Boy Scout this was standard gear for long treks (think Philmont).

After almost ending up in the hospital after a multi-day festival I went the wig-wam liner, SmartWool Socks, good boot with a good insert route this year and was great at the end of the festival. I had several people ask my how I could wear two layers of socks and "those thick wool socks" in the 100-degree heat. My feet were never hot. That combination breathed very well.

-F