Any LED guys switch back to incandescent?

The last few years I have spent most of my time and $$ on LED lights and mods. The advantages of shock resistance, circuitry, and efficiency make them hard to beat. They make great around the house lights, running on rechargeables with no bulbs to replace. But their uselfullness really plummets as soon as I take them outdoors. It seems to me that LED light has at least three weaknesses: ambient light, color spectrum, and throw.

Ambient light:
I live in an urban environment with street lamps casting their orange hue everywhere. If I try to use one of my 3 or 5 watt LED's on the sidewalk, the light from my flashlight is just swallowed up by the ambient light. To the naked eye it looks as if I'm using a 5mm or something. In contrast, my incandescents can still hold their own though somewhat diminished. I can see why it would not be a good idea for security and police officers to use an LED near any street lights.

Color spectrum:
The 5600 degree color and lack of red in the color spectrum make LED light appear cold and pale. After camping this past weekend, I couldn't help but notice how many times I reached for one of my incandescents rather than my LEDs. It may just be personal preference or aesthetics, but the colors of vegetation are much more vibrant and distinct using incandescent. It was unusually cold (wind chill of about 26 degrees) and the incandescents just felt like warmer lights. When walking a trail in the dark, it seemed much easier to find my way; I think in part because LED can feel and look like such unnatural light that it takes our brains an extra half second or something to identify things in its light.

Throw:
Anyone have LED headlights yet? I think there was a good thread a few months ago here about the vast disparity between incandescents and LEDs in the throw department. With some of the different mods I have I can make my LEDs throw just as far as some of my incandescents, but for what? It is too difficult to make out what I'm spotting! Again the color spectrum is the culprit. LED light just isn't as versitile as incandescent.

This isn't a thread to bash LEDs. I think they have great potential and it is exciting to see newer technology coming out every few months. I think LEDs have effectively replaced the 2D flashlight, but my point is just that LEDs still have a loooong way to go before catching up with high powered incandescents. And while my around the house light will still remain a 3watt LED, my EDC is back to being an incandescent. Given all the situations that I might need a good light, incandescent is going to out perform an LED in about 70% of them. Just my $.02 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I'm definitely an LED guy -- for all the reasons we all know so well. And I don't see that changing.

But I just bought my first good incandescent (a Streamlight TL-2), and I really like it. The brightness and throw are beyond anything any of my LEDs can offer.

For me, there is room for both. I do volunteer search and rescue work, so I value the runtime and durability of LEDs. But when I need long throw or a "wall of light" I'll reach for my TL-2. I'll be carrying both (actually, I usually carry more like 5 flashlights, but that's a different story). Hi, my name is Mike, and I'm a Flashaholic....

LEDs, despite all their weaknesses are the only solution for me. I hate it when a bulb blows at an inopportune time, plus the cost of importing exotic bulbs is prohibitively high here in Canada, not to mention the expensive diet of 123 cells that fancy incans demand. Long live LEDs!

leukos,

My experience echos yours, but, like you, I do not take the position that incandescents are all-around better; I only take the position that LED's and incandescent filaments both have their places and uses.

I have posted about this before, and many others have also posted about it as well. The light from LED's is not just of a higher color temp; it is also not a nice smooth continuous blackbody curve. GOOD incans, on the other hand have a CCT that is definitely lower, and on the red side of things, while still being acceptable, but more importantly they have a continuous color spectrum.

There is something called the CRI (color rendering index) and by definition incans have a CRI of 100 unless certain dichrotic coatings have been applied to the reflector.

As for throw, everyone who really NEEDS it in a variety of situations (such as LEO) says the same thing: incandescents have the advantage in lighting up things at a distance, especially in ambient light situations. Can LED's be made to throw? Of course they can. But their CRI and color spectrum are not ideal for this application.

Like you, I started out in LED lights--I think most of us did. They are very cool and have a number of advantages, although despite the common belief, efficiency is not one of them. Incans and LED lights are about equal in terms of efficiency, but for small low-voltage lights, not many efficient incan lights are available. If you underdrive a filament, the efficiency goes to crap real fast. The exceptions are probably the SureFire E1(e) and PT blast, although I've never used either one. But I digress. Anyway, I started out in LEDs and I still love my LED lights and I still use them--mostly around the house.

But, like you, I also have switched to an incan EDC because I find that for me it is more versatile. I EDC a SF E2e and it is a much better outdoors light than my FF or Arc LSH ever was.

And of course, there is the psychological, personal side of it, which I will be the first to admitt is decisive and totally subjective! I grew up around fireplaces and woodstoves and candles and campfires and even oil lamps, and there is something so cheering and heartwarming and WARM and happy about a good incandescent flashlight (please note the qualifier--a GOOD incan light; yellowing mags are NOT included). I often turn on my E2e or TL and shine it into my hand at an oblique angle and just bask in the reflected light and admire that intense, warm brightness. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool hot wire guy. No if ands buts about it.

But I have complete respect for those who find the red/yellow pronounced spectrum to be dissatisfying. Each to his or her own. I mean, I suppose I should really be getting into HID lights, given their better efficiency, but I doubt I ever will. I prefer the hot wire beam.

For me, I started in incan then started getting interested in leds when Arc came around. I love incans for throw. But in almost all other cases, I use led. I LIKE the white color. I like the flood. I REALLY like it outdoors. Being a scout leader, that is often. I like the flood when hiking. But I am very rarely in town where I need to outdo a light. I need the light because the trees where I live don't have lights! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am out in the country.

But I carry both. I use the led light probably 90% of the time. The incan is rarely used. A lot of the time just to impress people with how far a Surefire can throw.

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js said:
There is something called the CRI (color rendering index) and by definition incans have a CRI of 100 unless certain dichrotic coatings have been applied to the reflector.


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Wouldn't this fact show a deficiency of using CRI as a standard for the quality of light? For example, I've seen a huge difference between types of household incandescent bulbs--such as the yellowish, dingy "ultra long life" bulbs that landlords often use versus the surprisingly white GE Reveal brand. Is color temperature another important factor?

I was really gung-ho about LEDs last year. BUT my craving for more and more POWER led me back to incans! I'll probably go back to LEDs when a Luxeon 30W comes out! For now though, Carley Lamps and Welch Allyn are far more interesting to me than Lumileds.

I prefer LEDs greatly, but I do keep a supply of incandescents. I don't notice all this "cold and hot" beam stuff, to me my luxeon LEDs are just as useful as incandescents...but my eyes could be less sensitive to red. I actually prefer the whiter tint of high bin luxeons over the amber tint of incandescents. Even with fresh batteries, my Surefire incandescents appear amber tinted to my eyes, not white. Everyone is different though.


The one area I prefer incandescents though is the fog. My high powered LEDs give off too much blinding white light in the fog...the incandescents cut through the fog easier and give less blinding richochets. The amber tint is less stressful on the eyes if any light is reflected off fog. Plus, incandescents typically throw further plus give off more overall light (lumens).

Each has its ups and downs. I greatly prefer leds (luxeons specifically), but at the same time I still feel the incandescents are very useful in longer range applications.

I felt much the same way before I got a nice 3W LED with a good (Grrrreat!) beam.

Now I am plenty happy EDCing a Minim*g with a LED.

I too keep a few HOT incandescents, but use LED at least 95% of the time!

Well previously my incandescents were M@gs of one variety or another. Once I found this place the M@gs (and a lot of money /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif) went the way of the dodo and I acquired a Surefire E2e and a Streamlight TT2L, along with a list of LED lights. I found that I rarely used the E2e due to the short battery life and the cost of replacement bulbs. The Streamlight was a good backup but the incandescent wasn't as good as the Surefire and the LED wasn't as good as my luxI and luxIII based lights (all with 2xAA NiMH) so it gets used infrequently. My go to lights were my Arc LSHP with 2xAA tailpiece and my Minimag with Madmax Lite LuxIII sammie.

What I've discovered since I bought a Streamlight Strion rechargeable (with relatively cheap replacement bulbs including one in the tail) is that I'm using it a lot more than I ever used my E2e and appreciate the incandescent beam a lot more than I used to and am using it a lot more for all the reasons mentioned.

While some lights meet the bulk of my needs (the modded Mini seems to be my general task light these days and meets probably 80% of my needs) I have definitely concluded that you simply can't own one light to meet all your needs (isn't that our mantra anyway?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) and that both have their definite plusses and uses.

I did...but I still like my LED's in certain situations. I've been a true flashaholic for about 30 years...ever since I bought my first flashlight when I was 7 years old. For me, LED's were just a fad but still fill a niche. Hot wires still rule for most of my needs.

CRI is not everything, however. CRI is a comparison between the light source and a black-body emitter. The fewer the discontinuities, the closer it is to 100, the ideal. Since incandescent bulbs are black-body emitters, the CRI is 100%, however, the color temperature has a great effect as well. Noonish sunlight is about 6000K (can vary from 2000K to 30,000K depending on shade, season, time, etc, averaging 5000-6500K). Most incandescent bulbs are only about 3000K, worse at low voltage conditions.

For me, the low color temperature, poor efficiency, fragility, low life expectancy are reasons I shun incandescent bulbs. If CRI was very important, why not get use the warm white luxeons?

My uses only involves the indoors, so I use a LED. Incandescant attracts too much attention when I'm sitting in the back of a class room trying to look through my bag

leukos ... interesting points.
One of them is also true for me (LED guy) : LEDs do look ghostly and definitely not welcoming outside in the wilderness. Apart from that, permit me to comment on your statements:

Ambient Light:
This is tricky. Depends a lot on the beam characteristic and LEDs tend to be more flood-like and thus less seen in ambient light conditions. BUT ... why use such a light when there's ambient light at all? This is kind of an unfair argument against LEDs since they normally aren't designed for this. Take the typical LED ligths into pitch black darkness and it will shine like no incan will ... OR take a focussed LED-thrower and you will see it even in ambient light.

Color Spectrum:
Agreed.

Throw:
Use a LuxIII / Mag modification or an Aleph3 ... those throw like hell!

I won't bash incans either ... because they are still needed to cover the void between LEDs and HID in flashlights ... AND because they really look good outside, warm and fuzzy, I agree with you all. This is kinda silly, but it's there nevertheless /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bernhard

P.S:: re-read what I wrote ... lots of ... sorry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Do we switch back, or simply rediscover incandescent?

I found that my eyes expect yellowish light when looking at trees and shrubs. There are LEDs with a yellow cast that work just as well when looking at trees. I forget if the yellow ones are V Tint or or Y tint.

I own some of both, but the fact that small incan light brightness drop quickly leads me to carry LED for EDC. Larger incan lights have bigger batteries that hold up a bit better.

I have not seen a good incan that provides a flood as nice as many LEDs do. They almost always have a hotspot.

Daniel

I've been using incans professionally most of my life (8 years in the army, 26 years- so far- as a LEO). StreamLights rule in my profession, and I bought my first SF incan (6P) in 1990. But up until recently, I have never looked at ANY flashlights other than as a simple tool.

I was first exposed to LED lights two years ago on a trip to Carlsbad Caverns. Our first tour was the Slaughter Canyon Cave gig. That one is away from the main caverns and is not wired, so everyone must have a flashlight. The guides and fellow spelunkers alike were impressed with my 6P and 6Z; but I ended up having to pull out the back-up Stinger before the tour was over with; the curse of 123/incan combos.

We took the Lower Cave tour, where you are issued a hard hat with a wan little incan light mounted on it. You must provide four AA cells to power this. My wife's helmet was brand new and had an LED unit; the senior guide advised it was a new system they were testing.

In the absolute darkness 700 feet underground, I was quite impressed with the LED's performance. I have since found this forum, became somewhat educated in LED technology, and now have exactly three incan lights left in my arsenal; my venerable SL-20 and two Stingers.

I don't do real police work anymore, except on occasion during an all-hands call-out for emergencies, hurricanes, etc. Those incans are for such instances. Their throw and raw power is what is needed "on the street".

But for my everyday needs around the house and work, its LEDs for me. In fact, I just ordered an L4 and one of McGizmo's two-speed tail caps to replace my E2e, which I traded straight across for a KL-3 for my 6P... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This discussion has made me think; I never have really used an LED around street lights, so I may find that on my infrequent night walks I may have to tote one of the Stingers, or get another 123 incan. As soon as the L4 arrives, I'll find out.

Sounds like a good excuse for a G2...

I use and mod many luxeon.The light are many patterns since closeup work to far throw.

Now I come back to use both A2 and luxeon. Filament bulb give a nice yellow light and long throw.

I use LED in my own apartment and for reading stuff. For the shop, looking at equipment, getting somesones attention or in a store I use my xenon blinkmann xl.

Any of youse guys own a McLux PR 917 Lux III? Howse about a Choped KL3 (Pelican Reflector / Lux III driven at 1.2 amp?) Or one a dem modded mag lice with a direct drove luxeon III? Can't see da beam when da street lights are on? Well maybe you guys shouln't be out so late...

I'm really not getting this either. Many of you guys are saying that you go incand for throw or that wall of light. You really can't have both in a handheld light, be it incand or LED.

As far as the "wall" of light goes, I have to wonder if any of you have seen a 5W running at spec do its thing. Especially in something like a M@g light. Even an L4 puts out a serious "wall" of light and the L4 will comfortably fit into your pocket and give you regulated light.

As for throw, I went out in the field next to my house with my home made light that had a 27mm reflector in it, with a Lux III running at about 700mA. I also had my M3 with the MN10 bulb in it. The M3 puts out gobbs of light, but my home brew light out threw it. I mean at the end of the 100 yard or so field, I could "see" things with the home brew, but the M3 cast just enough light to see that it was casting light, but I couldn't "see" anything with it.

I know that incands can kick butt when you get into the really big lights, but for hand held lights, LEDs are right there in terms of performance.

Maybe you guys are just talking about commercially available LED lights. If this is the case, then I can understand you points of view. I've haven't met an LED light yet that wasn't in need of modding. What I'm saying is that LEDs are very capable, if they are setup right.

I have a 3D m@g mod with 3 Lux III's and 3 20mm reflectors. It's a direct drive setup and at 75 yards, it lit up a 30 foot tall tree from top to bottom. My M3 with the MN11 LA couldn't do that.

Within each of the realms of incands and LEDs there are going to be lights that are more capable than others, but to say that one is generally better than another for any particular task is, in my humble opinion, a mistake.