Photon Freedom - Which Colour?

Ka

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Hi Guys, I am so pleased I found this forum, I love LED lights and I thought I was the only one!

Right, I have various Photon's:

- Orange, use attached to my dogs collar.
- Blue, on my partners key ring
- Green, on my key ring
- Raving, both the ribbon and strobe, great fun!
- UV, used at work but it got stolen!

My Photon 3 now has a problem as it decided it does not like the battery cover, it keep popping off which is a bit strange. I found this with my other Photons too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

I'm looking at getting a Photon Freedom for my key ring, just which colour?

- Blue, I have used blue outdoors, it's bright but there is not much contrast.

- Green, I found this very good in the dark, great contrast.

- Orange, I found this was too dim.

- White, I found this as average, other colours flood better.

My requirement is a colour that will flood a large area, be bright and provide good contrast. So I thought maybe turquoise would be my idea colour?

What do you guys think?
 

Robban

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Does it have to be a Photon? Sounds like you use your lights quite a bit and replacing those batteries can't be fun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Have you thought about stepping up to an AA or AAA light for longer runtime?

As for colour. Personally I prefer white to see the "full" spectrum of colours on the things around me.
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
Ka said:My requirement is a colour that will flood a large area, be bright and provide good contrast. So I thought maybe turquoise would be my idea colour?

[/ QUOTE ]

Color is kind of a personal thing - although physiology does count - it is also what we're used to.

For general usage white is the recommended color - just because there is little to no color distortiuon.

However the bright hot-spot of bare white LED is too bright/contrasty relatively compared to the non-existent side-spill. So although the hot-spot lit area is illuminated - most people have difficulties seeing outside of the circle of light - a sort of tunnel vision.

Strangely enough, dimmer/lower light levels can actually help to see areas outside of the light circle - since the it's easier for the eyes to adapt from the dimmer light to to the ambient light (hope that makes sense).

So white in a Photon Freedom may be the way to go since it has dimmer levels - it's a matter of finding what level works for you, and only use the full level when you need more light.....

The human eye is most sensitive to green in phototopic vision - which is what we use to see under a flashlight. So green would be the most efficient light, everything else being equal.

However I find it relatively hard to see using green light as illumination - especially outdoors - yes, there is contrast - but not the right ones for me - and I find it hard to see detail - which is what I would use a light for. However this could just be my eyes, personal bias and maybe what I am conditioned to.

For example traffic signal lights are high and hung overhead in the USA - if I drive on a dark road through a "green" light (actually more blue-green) I find the lights too bright and dazzle, making it difficult for me to see past the traffic lights even though I have my low beams on.

I find that under a dimmer light - which all of the keyring button cell 5mm LED lights as typified by the Photons are - yellow seems to work for me - there almost seems to be an enhancement of contrast and definition.

Plus the LEDs of longer wavelengths like red, orange and yellow are all spec'd/advertised by Photon at 120 hours runtime - which is almost "forever" - I had a Photon I yellow as my EDC on my keyring for well over 7 years - and at one time the only flashlight on me, so it got plenty of use - I finally retired it - yet its battery was still going strong. I still EDC a Photon 2 Yellow.

I like yellow - since this gives me a light I can use well at lower light levels, and I can be confident that it is always dependable and will out last any prolonged electrical outage.

So I'd have white if it's my only light -
and yellow if I want it as second or backup dependable light.

But I fully understand if YMMV
 

MrBenchmark

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Hi Ka,

To me there's only two reasonable color choices - white and red. White's preferrable, in that you can see colors with it. Red is better if you want to preserve your dark adaptation. The Red Freedom is really fairly bright - I can navigate OK with mine at a dark sky site - the problem is that it only seems bright if it's really dark around you, otherwise your eyes aren't well dark adapted. The nice thing about the Freedom is that you can dial the light down to a level where it's not too bright. None of the other colors preserve your dark adaptation well, and you can't discern the color of whatever you are looking at with them, I don't find them to be very useful.

But that doesn't matter where you are, I'd guess. Under typical urban conditions, the Freedom is not bright enough, because there's so much ambient light that your eyes aren't really dark adapted anyway, so you can't see the light from the Freedom well.

So what I think you need is a much brighter light, which will definitely be something bigger than a photon. Can you tolerate carrying a bigger flashlight?
 

Fat_Tony

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County Comm has really inexpensive pocket lights that come in all colors for $1.00 USD each, but you have to buy them in lots of 20. Unfortunately, they do not ship internationally. Perhaps some CPF member with a PayPal account would be willing to order some on your behalf, and then re-ship them to you if you reimburse them? Just a thought. Below is County Comm's CPF Member's URL:

http://www.countycomm.com/CPFMASTER.htm
 

chanik

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The LEDs are socketed in the freedom. So you can buy a white one and switch to a single CR2032 and red LED if you want. R/Y/O want the 2032 while Blue, Aqua, White want the pair of 2016 although some people switch to a single CR2032 for the whites just to have very long run time with a dimmer light. Of course, LRI will fix/replace your defective cover on your older photons if you want, too.
 

gwbaltzell

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:


The human eye is most sensitive to green in phototopic vision - which is what we use to see under a flashlight. So green would be the most efficient light, everything else being equal.



[/ QUOTE ]
I think you meant scotopic (night or rod only) and the peak is actually blue-green (near traffic light green). Red to preserve night vision is a near myth. The level of brightness is very low and the hue needed (650nm or longer) is not commonly available in premade LED lights. Since the brightness level we normally want to operate in is mesopic (both rods and cones) an adjustable level white is a very good choice. If color recognition is not important then blue-green (a.k.a. cyan, turquoise, etc.) is the choice to give the most brightness for the amount of power input at scotopic and mesopic levels.

BTW - peek for photopic vision (bright light) is a yellow (toward orange) at 555nm.
 

Ka

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Right I just gone for the turquoise and infrared covert Photon Freedom.

As a 'always with me' unit I hope that turquoise would be a slight improvement on the green Photon that I have.

I have a Fliklite LS:3 Luxeon Star, 1 watt, it gives off a strong white beam and today I was using it in the woods with the dogs, it's effective but the spotlight is very narrow beam.

I just purchased: Turquoise & InfraRed Covert Photon Freedoms, 2 x X-Light 'Rainbow' and express shipping to the UK for only £36!

Most UK online retailers sell for £25 when postage is included, all thanks to the strong pound!
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
gwbaltzell said:
[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:


The human eye is most sensitive to green in phototopic vision - which is what we use to see under a flashlight. So green would be the most efficient light, everything else being equal.



[/ QUOTE ]
I think you meant scotopic (night or rod only) and the peak is actually blue-green (near traffic light green). Red to preserve night vision is a near myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I did mean Photopic - ie: daylight vision using the cones -
when using a flashlight there is enough light that we are using the cones vision - since we see color......

Before saying red for preserving human night vision is a myth, perhaps people should check out this Pinned reference thread over in the Night Vision section:
Human Night Vision Preservation

Although there still seems to be some controversy - personally I'd much prefer to believe the USAF Flight Surgeon's published article on preserving night vision.
 

gwbaltzell

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:


Nope, I did mean Photopic - ie: daylight vision using the cones -
when using a flashlight there is enough light that we are using the cones vision - since we see color......



[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif, but most flashlight use would be mesopic (both rods and cones) unless starting into the working end /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .
Photopic (cone only) doesn't start until about 1000 cd • M^2.
Rods luminance rage .0000001 to 1 * 1000 cd • M^2 (may still play a roll above this range)
Cones luminance rage .0001 to 1 * 1000000 cd • M^2

And to continue /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif from the US Army field manual 3-04.301:
Cockpit Light Adjustment

8-39. Instrument, cockpit, and rear cargo area overhead lights (if applicable) should be adjusted to the lowest readable level that allows instruments, charts, and maps to be interpreted without prolonged staring or exposure. Although blue-green lighting at low intensities can also be used in cockpits without significantly disrupting unaided night vision and dark adaptation, items printed in blue-green may wash out. The use of blue-green lighting, however, has several benefits. Blue-green light falls naturally on the retinal wall and allows the eye to focus easily on maps, approach plates, and instruments; blue-green lighting results in less eye fatigue. In addition, the intensity necessary for blue-green lighting is less than that for red lighting and results in a decreased infrared signature as well as less glare. When blue-green lighting is used properly, the decrease in light intensity and the ease of focusing make it more effective for night vision.

Red lighting and googles are discussed in the paragraphs before this.

I could suggest a search.yahoo.com look up of:
night vision red
but since the first entry is my web page, I guess that wouldn't be fair.

George
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
gwbaltzell said:
[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:


Nope, I did mean Photopic - ie: daylight vision using the cones -
when using a flashlight there is enough light that we are using the cones vision - since we see color......



[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif, but most flashlight use would be mesopic (both rods and cones) unless starting into the working end /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .
Photopic (cone only) doesn't start until about 1000 cd • M^2.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's NOT much light - 1,000 cd sounds alot but that's per square metre (more than a square YARD!) - a flashlight even the dim CMG Infinity Task light (NOT the Ultra) will produce more than that for close tasks -

Look at your own referenced article from the army and the panel on Mesopic vision says "reduces color vision and decreases visual acuity" - under white flashlight lighting unless very very dim most of us are seeing full color and clear acuity - so it IS Photopic vison we are using WITH the illumination of the flashlight.

However withOUT the flashlight we may well be using Mesopic vision - since most of us live in urban environments and with the amount of amabient light - it is very UNlikely we are using true Scotopic (night) vision.

This Army article is very similar to the USAF Flight Surgeon's article which deals a LOT more with Human Night Vision - since it is critical for pilots -

Here's a quote from
USAF Flight Surgeon's Guide: Chapter 8
(about 2/3 down the page under the heading "Night Vision")

QUOTE:
Enhancing and Maintaining Dark Adaptation: For maximum utilization of scotopic vision, 20 to 30 minutes are required, in total darkness, to attain satisfactory dark-adaptation. A more practical alternative is to have the aircrew members wear red goggles to facilitate dark adaptation. Red goggles can be worn in normal illumination and do not interfere significantly with the ability to read maps, charts, manuals, etc. They block all light except red light, and red light does not simulate the rods, as we have seen.

To understand why red filters can be used to achieve dark adaptation, it is necessary to examine the relative positions of the photopic and scotopic sensitivity curves in Figure 8-20. If a red filter with a cutoff at about 650 nanometers is worn, essentially no light is transmitted to the eye that can stimulate the rods. However, the cones are sensitive to the red light, and, thus, adequate visual acuity is permitted. By wearing red goggles for 30 minutes, the rods are almost fully dark adapted. Although the cones are not dark adapted, it only takes about 5 to 7 minutes, after a pilot steps into the dark, for the cones to adapt. Cone adaptation is relatively unimportant, since they are incapable of functioning in starlight illumination. There are, however, some drawbacks to wearing red goggles. For example, when reading maps, all markings in red ink on a white background may be invisible. In addition, red light creates or worsens near point blur in the pre-presbyopic or presbyopic pilot, as red light comes to a focus behind the retina and requires more accommodation to bring it into focus.

Dark adaptation of the rods develops rather slowly over a period of 20 to 30 minutes, but it can be lost in a second or two upon exposure to bright lights. The night flyer must, therefore, be taught to avoid bright lights. Also, the instrument panel must be kept illuminated at the lowest level consistent with safe operation, and the flyer must avoid looking at flares, after-burner flames, or gun flashes. If light must be used, it should be as dim as possible and used for the shortest possible period.

Dark adaptation is an independent process in each eye. Even though a bright light may shine in one eye, the other will retain its dark adaptation, if it is protected from the light. This is a useful bit of information, because a flyer can preserve dark adaptation in one eye by simply closing it.

Cockpit Illumination: The use of red light (wavelength greater than 650 nanometers) for illumination of the cockpit is desirable, because it, like red goggles, does not affect dark adaptation. Red cockpit lighting has been traditional since World War II. The intent was to maintain the greatest rod sensitivity possible, while still providing some illumination for central foveal vision. However, red cockpit lighting did create some near vision problems for the pre-presbyopic and presbyopic aviators. With the increased use of electronic and electro-optical devices for navigation, target detection, and night vision, the importance of the pilot's visual efficiency within the cockpit has increased and new problems have been created. Low intensity, white cockpit lighting is presently used to solve those problems. It affords a more natural visual environment within the aircraft, without degrading the color of objects. Blue-green cockpit lighting is used in aircraft in which night-vision devices are used because, unlike the human eye, these devices are not sensitive to light at that end of the visual spectrum. In addition, blue-green light is the easiest for accommodative focus and is seen by the rods more readily than any other color. It is not seen as blue-green, however, but only as light. However, the enemy can easily see a blue-green light, under scotopic conditions, in any position of his peripheral field, whereas a low intensity red light would be invisible unless viewed directly.
UNQUOTE

I hope this clarifies and confirms the use of RED light to preserve human night vision.

Green and Blue-green are primarily used for compatibility with Night Vision EQUIPMENT - with the benefit that at lower levels they are still useful for human vision.

However since they are the wavelength most sensitive to the human eye - it doesn't take much to disturb human night (scotopic) vision - in fact I would go to say that of all the mono-colors those are the WORST for preserving human night (scotopic) vision.

(Whereas some people (including me) do have difficulties seeing well under Red light - but that difficulty does NOT negate the fact that Red is the correct color to preserve human night (scotopic) vision.)

An easy empirical evidence is the continued and persistent use of dim Red lighting in astronomy observatories...
you're very likely to be thrown out for using green or blue-green lighting -
myth or no myth......

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif - and we can see it under red, or green/blue-green lighting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

PeLu

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:The human eye is most sensitive to green in phototopic vision - which is what we use to see under a flashlight. So green would be the most efficient light, everything else being equal.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with almost everything you wrote above, this one does not take one thing into consideration:
What people are interested in is the maxiumum 'amount' of light (lets call them 'lumen hours') from one 'charge'.

The blue/green/white ones need two 2016 cells and waste a lot of energy on their internal reistance and at an inefficient discharge rate.
So the single cell Photons jump in, with the yellow one in front.
The not so optimal light colour is more than outweighted by the much longer runtime (and for an adjustable light like this you could go longer fopr a higher setting).
If the coulor is useable for your application, of course....
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
PeLu said:
So the single cell Photons jump in, with the yellow one in front.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you see me in the choir from your pulpit? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yellow was one of my recommendations, and what I've EDC for over 8 years........
 

MrBenchmark

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:
(Whereas some people (including me) do have difficulties seeing well under Red light - but that difficulty does NOT negate the fact that Red is the correct color to preserve human night (scotopic) vision.)

An easy empirical evidence is the continued and persistent use of dim Red lighting in astronomy observatories...
you're very likely to be thrown out for using green or blue-green lighting -
myth or no myth......



[/ QUOTE ]

Astronomers, especially folks who are doing visual stuff (which is pretty much none of the pro's) need for dark adaptation is pretty extreme. Frequently I'm looking at stuff that's barely within the grasp of my scope. Some of this stuff is faint, diffuse, and low contrast - you need to be as dark adapted as possible to have any chance of seeing it.

In the city, I don't even pretend to attempt to maintain dark adaptation - I just use the biggest light I can carry...
 

gwbaltzell

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:

That's NOT much light - 1,000 cd sounds alot but that's per square metre (more than a square YARD!) - a flashlight even the dim CMG Infinity Task light (NOT the Ultra) will produce more than that for close tasks -

Look at your own referenced article from the army and the panel on Mesopic vision says "reduces color vision and decreases visual acuity" - under white flashlight lighting unless very very dim most of us are seeing full color and clear acuity - so it IS Photopic vison we are using WITH the illumination of the flashlight.

However withOUT the flashlight we may well be using Mesopic vision - since most of us live in urban environments and with the amount of amabient light - it is very UNlikely we are using true Scotopic (night) vision.



[/ QUOTE ]



This is a (low) daylight level, a 100W bulb at 4 ft produces around 1 cd • M^2. Unless you're at a gas (gasoline, petro, benzine) station at night you're likely using mesopic vision. (Hint: there is way TOO much light pollution)

I must agree with the "since most of us live in urban environments and with the amount of amabient light - it is very UNlikely we are using true Scotopic (night) vision" statement. If fact the number of the postings I've seen about fuzzy or noisy night vision or a hole in vision tells me that most people that have experienced true scotopic vision don't understand it.

BTW my own experiments with a blue-green LED showed a shift from scotopic to mesopic below 0.1 mA or less than 0.0003 W input (a 35° 505nm LED at one foot from white paper). Running 20 mA produced enough light for my whole backyard, (at a mesopic level) on a very overcast moonless night, that I could easily not trip on anything.

Thanks for the link. The one I had from Brook's AFB was in MS Word format.

George
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
gwbaltzell said:
This is a (low) daylight level, a 100W bulb at 4 ft produces around 1 cd • M^2.

[/ QUOTE ]

George,

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes -

I do realize on a dark night an using a flashlight for distant objects - one would indeed be using Mescoptic vision - absolutely NO arguments on that -

But for the typical close tasks that a Photon like flashlight is used for, light held in one hand while the other hand holds the object under the illumination (likely to be only inches away) -
that's the brightness level I was referring to - and that is much more than 1,000cd.M^2 - wouldn't you agree?

Thanks,
 

gwbaltzell

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Vincent

I don't think its that high even that close. Will try a measurement.

1. Go buy new battery for light meter.
2. Find a white Nicha and 2 2016's. Or use my Photon clone. Hmmm.
3. Find notes on conversion of Lux to cd • M^2, I think its divide by 3 point something ???

I'll get back to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

George
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
gwbaltzell said:I don't think its that high even that close. Will try a measurement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look forward to your measurements -
but try this simple eyeballing sanity check -

Go outside in any daylight - that's Photopic vision - even on an overcast day, right?
(since mesopic is supposed to be active at TWILIGHT)

Hold out your palm and shine almost any flashlight at that palm - do you see the hot-spot?

If so the intensity is noticably BRIGHTER than daylight....
QED?
or was that the QE2? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

UnknownVT

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:
[ QUOTE ]
gwbaltzell said:I don't think its that high even that close. Will try a measurement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look forward to your measurements -
but try this simple eyeballing sanity check -


[/ QUOTE ]

OK I just did this measurement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I took the two DIMMEST LED flashlights I have and went outside held my palm facing the sky and using a ruler I shone my LED lights at the palm.

My dimmest white LED on single 2032 (under-driven) - the hot-spot was visible at 3" away from the palm.

My Photon 1 Yellow hot-spot was visible at 4" away from the palm.

Yes, the day was overcast - but it's 12:30PM (noon) in Atlanta - it is about "cloudy dull" - so I know it is NOT Mesopic vision for me -
I took a photo of the outside scene it was 1/125 sec at f/2.8 at ISO100 -
that light level is almost 3,000 LUX or 256 foot-candles....

and how Dim is that Dim White LED?
dim3_ArcAAA.jpg


ref:
joys of a DIM flashlight
 

MrBenchmark

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[ QUOTE ]
UnknownVT said:
(since mesopic is supposed to be active at TWILIGHT)


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, some of the discussion of dark adaptation vs. light color has assumed that sometimes we are using mesopic vision, as opposed to purely scotopic or photopic vision. This is realistic, but I have a question - can anybody see well with mesopic vision? I'd read somewhere, if I recall correctly, that our vision isn't very efficient in twilight.

For what it's worth (not much), I know that my vision isn't fantastic in twilight. Maybe this is purely psychological, as I tend to compare what I can see at twilight to what I see during the day, instead of what I see at night. (That might be the more fair comparison - but it's not the one my brain seems to make, darn it.)
 

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