The mysterious fate of the X-bins...

We all know that manufacturers get various different bins when they order Luxeons. Now, if they want to use a minimum bin in a light, they need to weed out the lower bins, and I guess this is something they do all the time. Now one would assume that from time to time there are very good bins among the others. What shall they do? If they put them in the lights, some of the lights will be much brighter. Since I've never heard of an L4 with double the brightness of the normal L4's, I assume they weed out the good bins, too. This means that a company such as Surefire must be in possession of a number of X-bins. What do they do with them besides putting a few in very special prototype lights? One possibility would be to collect them for use in a special light that has higher specs and is more expensive, which is what I suspected the U2 would be. (Surefire's lumens claim is higher than what they claim for their other Lux-V's and the price is pretty steep.) Now that we all know that the U2 is not brighter than the L5, where are those X-bins?

I have no reason to believe SF has ever received some X bin 5W's and in fact have reason to believe that they haven't. I do recall seeing some reels of R bin 1 Watt LED's in a certain fellow's office and I was told that those LED's eventually went into KL1's. To me, there was an irony that since they were R4, some folks here removed those LED's to be replaced with LED's that were less violet in tint! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif I also know that there were some overachieving W bin 5W's in the original runs of L4's and many of these were returned because of greenish or warm tints. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I had 40+ X3T's in my possesion and these were well accepted because of their known bin and yet had the bin not been known, some would likely have been frowned upon because they mostly had a "warmish" tint.

I sure don't know where those X bins are but if some got to the commercial manufacturers, there is a good chance that they are out among us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

I suspect my U2 has an Xbin. tint is almost perfect white at all levels. output in total lumens is almost identical to my other Xbins.

very tricky to measure w/o an integrating sphere. can't go by lux reading. I go by how much lumens is generated by how well lumens lights up a large uniform area minimum 40 feet away.

I use a nutral color fence 45 feet away from light source. I also use an ARC4X certified at 48 lumens as referance source.

Doesn't SF calibrate all their lights to have the same output?
If that's the case, the only differences between a great bin and a lousy one would be runtime and heat, which aren't very hard to spot...

ARC4 was the only flashlight to calibrate to a set light level, Surefires run at a certain current level like every other flashlight out there.

As to the fate of X bins, i suspect the majority of them are held back for Lumiled's big ticket clients or sent to prospective clients as engineering samples.

Or could it be that Lumileds has finally got a handle on the manufacturing process and quality control. The LuxIII's they have been turning out lately are very close with just minor tint variations with what we get here in B/S/T and wasn't the X Bin sort of an anomaly to start with?

What to do with a handful of over achievers when they don't match with 99% (Just a SWAG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) of your product........Well I guess they could sale them out the back door to us but it dosen't look like that is going to happen /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Later
Kelly

I have a Mag4D with WX1U LuxV. This was part of Endeavor's rebinned Luxeon group buy and this particular unit clocked in at 155 lumens (yes, apparently the person doing the rebinning has an integrating sphere) at stock 700mA. What I then did was hook it up to BB917 unit and overdrove it by 20% for more light. Even if 20% more power translates into only 10% more light (law of diminishing returns, as demonstrated by McGizmo /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif), that's at least 170 lumens.

My U2 took it and smacked it around a little, even after I fed it a power packed diet of NiMH. So I'm looking at the U2 and thinking "What are you, an XWAT?" if it isn't, it's a VERY overachieving W bin (towards the top end of the spectrum, 190+ lumens).

Anyone here think that Lumileds keeps the better bins for themselves to analyze what went right so that they can hopefully tweak the production process to get more X bin L5's (or U bin L3's)? Any time you have an electronics part which performs well above current averages it is termed a golden sample, and quite often these never see the light of day for a variety of reasons, most of which have to do with keeping production uniform and tweaking the process. For all we know Lumileds may have even gotten Y bin L5's or V bin L3's and they're hard at work analyzing them. No sense selling an extra category (i.e. bin) if only a few samples in current production reach it. It costs money to sort and separately price these things, and they would be hard to sell except over here. A manufacturer would not be interested in better bins unless enough could be made to meet the demands of some premium product. If not, they won't put one in their standard product for the simple reason that it would make most production units look like underachievers. Can you imagine how many people might send back their lights if an occasional much higher bin slipped through and they had a chance to make a comparison?

[ QUOTE ]
KevinL said: BB917 unit and overdrove it by 20% for more light. Even if 20% more power translates into only 10% more light (law of diminishing returns, as demonstrated by McGizmo /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif), that's at least 170 lumens.


[/ QUOTE ]

factor 15% min. transmission loss, then 20%+ loss caused by heat. to get what comes out front end.

Yeah, I know about the losses. I'm quoting "LED Lumens" for both platforms (prior to losses) and assuming the losses are similar. If SF has found a way to reduce the losses.. well all I can say is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Since I have no lightmeter, brightness was measured by eye and by a digital camera. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've found the best way to simulate lumens comparisons between two lights is to stand in a dark room with one light in each hand, held over your head, with hotspots pointed at the same spot on the ceiling. Then look AHEAD at some object on the wall or perhaps a desk, but DO NOT LOOK UP AT THE BEAMS. Now alternately turn on first one light, then the other, and repeat several times, trying to go straight from one to the other with no intervening darkness, and no point during which both lights are on. After going back and forth several times, it usually becomes apparent which light makes that object on the wall or desk appear brighter. I've done this dozens of times, and it's a great test!

Now if one of the lights has a known lumens rating (and if it's accurate, not just marketing hype!), you can make a decent guess as to whether the unknown light is performing above or below that particular number of lumens.

milky, that's an excellent way to get an aprox. read on the total output of your light.

I shine my MRX straight up into white ceiling. Then I see how well the entire room is lit up. Then compare to other light.

Having a calibrated light (ARC4X certified 48 lumens) as referance makes a huge difference.

MR-X X3T lights up a room aprox. same as M6 w/250 lumen bulb. my overachieving U2 lights up room aprox. same as Mclux PR X3T and X4T Pr-t.

I'm convinced my U2 has a lux putting out lumens equal to a Xbin. with all the delays U2 went thru, you know Surefire had time to secure the best possible grade 5watts.

Surefire may not have the same bulk buying power as say car mfg or traffic light mfg. but surefire would have the best purchasing clout of any flashlight mfg.

jtr, what you say sounds the most plausible. Why sell those few when they can use it for R&D.

[ QUOTE ]
milkyspit said:
I've found the best way to simulate lumens comparisons between two lights is to stand in a dark room with one light in each hand, held over your head, with hotspots pointed at the same spot on the ceiling. Then look AHEAD at some object on the wall or perhaps a desk, but DO NOT LOOK UP AT THE BEAMS. Now alternately turn on first one light, then the other, and repeat several times, trying to go straight from one to the other with no intervening darkness, and no point during which both lights are on. After going back and forth several times, it usually becomes apparent which light makes that object on the wall or desk appear brighter. I've done this dozens of times, and it's a great test!

Now if one of the lights has a known lumens rating (and if it's accurate, not just marketing hype!), you can make a decent guess as to whether the unknown light is performing above or below that particular number of lumens.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I do for lights I want to compare. Wait till dark, one light in each hand, both pre-aimed at the same spot because if you point 'em at different places, the amount of light that falls is different. Poor man's integrating sphere /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif