ID required for interstate public travel?

My 21 year old son wanted to go to PA for a wedding. He doesn't have a driver's license, hasn't wanted to. Hasn't had need for photo ID. He can't travel by bus, train or (I knew) plane. Greyhound said he may or may not be asked but if he was and didn't have ID he couldn't continue. Amtrak checks ID. He won't be going to PA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
He as well as another over 16 child will be getting ID shortly.
Is anyone concerned about a "papers please" mentality developing?
We don't have objections to photo ID's or the like but if you must have one to travel in non-private transportation it can cause problems.

"Papers" like a drivers license used to be a sign of status..of progression to adulthood. Not as a sign of an oppressive government.

Have times changed that much?


DNA testing and proof will follow in a few years. You and he might be better off worrying about the possible abuses of the technology.

Oh a driver's license is still a great priveledge(sp?). Being required to have one to travel is not. There are people who by choice or circumstance don't have a car. If they want to travel by common carrier why should they be required to have (and pay for) ID? Amish people come to mind.
My understanding, maybe wrong, is that at some point a national ID will be required for airline travel. Again I fly on average about once every 10 years. Why do I need more than my state DL?
Security? Maybe. Control? Maybe.

There's a lawsuit in progress about it. Web site: http://freetotravel.org/

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paulr said:
There's a lawsuit in progress about it. Web site: http://freetotravel.org/

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The FAQ page has some good general points about freedom.
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Q. Why are you challenging the ID requirement?

People in the US have a right to travel and associate without being monitored or stopped by their government, unless they are actually suspected or convicted of a crime, and unless that suspicion is reasonable.

Clearly it is not reasonable to suspect every American of being a criminal bent on hijacking an airplane. There is no evidence against the vast majority of Americans, and there is a multitude of evidence that most people harbor no desire or intent to hijack airplanes. Yet American travelers are being identified, tracked, and searched nevertheless. This policy violates decades and centuries of court decisions about the rights of innocent Americans. The mere demand for an ID is a search, which the Fourth Amendment protects us from.

The ID requirement is not part of any law passed by Congress, or any regulation published by the Executive Branch, yet somehow it is being imposed on every traveler. The USSR was full of "secret" laws and directives, which abrogated the fundamental rights that had been written in the published laws and constitution. I believe that a law which the government is unwilling to publish cannot be enforced, and there are many lawyers who agree with me.


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And he is pretty much just talking about air travel. Except toward the end.

Pre 9/11, I and others in line at the airport would use our "Costco" photo ID's. They would complain, but usually I would just point at the sign and ask where it said I must provide Government issued ID and many times they would relent.

But it appears that the 9/11 hijackers ID'ed up the ying/yang:

From NJ STAR-LEDGER; December 20, 2004:

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Three of the 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks had overstayed their visas, and the 19 had acquired 63 driver's licenses from various states.

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Boy, them gov'ment IDs really wuks good. And from the same article--it seems that even fancy NJ State ID's with UV water marks, digital photographs, etc. can't outweigh the greed of folks:

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Just last week 16 people, including three state motor vehicle employees, were arrested in New Jersey for allegedly making and selling fake state digital driver's licenses.

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One suggestion that you might try if you are concerned about personal security and general snoopyness of people that demand to see your ID--in California (as far as I know), it still allows you to place a PO Box as your address on your Drivers license/State ID card (this was passed into law after that young actress was murdered by a stalker--her address was provided to the stalker by the DMV).

Speaking of which--for the US Post Office, they required 2 pieces of ID when I went to get a new PO Box number--and surprise, they would not accept my credit card as my second ID--however, they would accept my "proof of auto insurance" card. And this card was a joke--just a laser printed card on regular paper with my name and Insurance policy number/provider. Like I could not forge that in about 15 minutes (including the time to boot my computer and warm up the printer). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh well--life is wonderful.

-Bill

I have to speak up on the side of and ID card.

But first I'll point out that you can go where you want without ID, but if you want to use the public infrastructure that we all pay for (or subsidize) you will be required to identify yourself.

In California, an adult is required to have an ID card or a Drivers license. The courts have upheld the right of an officer to require that you truthfully identify yourself. I have never heard of anyone being hunted down illegally because of this requirement. I have heard of criminals who were suspected of a crime who lied about their name and, lacking ID, were then checked more thoroughly. It seems to work for the good of society.

Exactly how do you determine if a person is here illegally (as in the case of terrorists) without some paperwork? That'a as dumb as the big companies that make vistors wear 'visitor' badges but no one else does. As soon as the badge is thrown away there's no sign that visitor should be restricted.

I also find it pretty silly that many of the people who have riled against an ID card have no problems using credit cards or drivers license. They have no problems collecting social security or welfare. They willingly tell the government where to send their tax refund.

If the government was really up to no good, it would take nothing for them to subpeona a copy of Master Card, Visa and Equifax's databases. In hours they would have more than enough information on all the legal folks.

Personally, I'd like to see every illegal immigrant deported immediately, regardless of whether they had a child on US soil. But how do we tell when you need nothing to claim a US citizenship?

Daniel

Bill (BB) responded while I was typing. He makes a good point. It's easy to get locally issued IDs when they are not tied togther in any way. I think that's one of the pushes behind the national ID card.

As for airports, the fact that they do a **** poor job is a reason to promote a national ID card that they can validate. I cringe when I see that they will let me though the security checkpint without checking my flight papers or my ID.

Daniel

Daniel,

I agree with everything you typed here...

Just yesterday, I attended a naturalization ceremony (SF Masonic Hall, 9:00am, 1400+ people, normally held twice a month) for my father-in-law. There were over 100 countries of origin represented at this ceremony (every one read allowed in the ceremony). Plus if any of these people are parents of kids less than 18 years old (with legal green cards) where also automatically US citizens too, as of yesterday. It takes some work and struggle--but there are many people are becoming US citizens every year.

However, even a "simple" uniform national ID card will not solve all of our problems (and the naturalization certificate looks to be just your standard fancy government document with your picture glued to it)... Just look on the web and Google US Passport fake/stolen/altered/forged/visa/etc. and see how well that document is working right now.

The "new" version of the US passport that is scheduled to come out very soon includes an RFID tag.

This tag will have a 64 kbyte memory (follow links in article) that will have your name, country, address, picture, ID number, birthdate, etc. all easily accessible by a simple RFID reader with a range of several feet (possibly even up to 30 feet or so with the correct equipment and environment). The RFID was apparently pushed by the US government over a smart card (physical contact require) type solution. And if it somehow makes it more difficult for somebody to forge a passport for the 25 countries that are signed on/required to support this new technology--a person can simply forge a passport with one of the other ~150+ countries that are not using this technology.

Talk about your survelance and ID theft opportunities with this type of document. No encryption and no physical contact required... Just set up your PC and antenna on the street corner and start cranking out them ID's using real passport information.

Now all of those "tin foil hat" folks will have to tin foil line their pants also... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If we are really interested in secure ID--you really are going to need a number (either on an ID, or implanted in your arm) that connects to a government/world-wide central data base (with appropriate security). That data base would need your finger print, photo, other physical information (maybe things like retinal scan, hand print, DNA) to ID you--and other "interesting information" (country of nationality, visa info, status, criminal history, financial information, family relationships, work history, friend history, people you have "bumped into" down a the church/temple/heaven/hell/72 virgins, etc.)...

I am only half kidding here--any/all of these pieces of information can be very helpful in an investigation... But should we submit to it? Did we give our government(s) the "right" to do this?

I don't know...

-Bill

Somewhere out there you can get an id card issued by the state, but it is not a drivers license.

Id technology is coming. My new drivers license here in MS has a bar code and a mag strip across the back.

There's no stopping this guys. I personally hate it. The writing's all over the wall on this progression.

The whole world is coalescing and getting smaller. National id draws us together a little. The internet has made the planet MUCH smaller. Nafta.... United Nations....

Now the US is tied up in Iraq/Iran. Anyone else see the "big picture" and how things are setting up?

Yes, the card need only contain a cross reference to a database. The database should have the biometric info. The card should not.

Yes, I think that the database should have flags on it. "Known criminal" is a good one. "Has threatened a public official" would be another. "Is wanted for murder" would be a third.

Adding a chip to a card (passport) that makes it self authenticating is just plain stupid, pushed by the technology vendors. That is only valid IF it can be easily authenticated (and if it IS actually authenticated). Trusting a card that can be tampered with just doesn't make sense.

The airport is a perfect example of why you don't have much to worry about.

You need a (machine readable) boarding pass to get through the security check, but they don't check them against any database. They don't track whether the pass has already been used until you get to the plane. They never check to see if a license is valid. They just look at it.

No here's an up-side... Identity theft usually happens accross state lines. It makes it hard to prosecute. If my universal ID card is used in two different states every day for a couple days, maybe someone could catch the SOB before he or she ruins others lives.

Then there's poor Jose Gonzales, recently held for a week becasue he shared the name and age with a criminal in his city. He had to go through a lot to show that they wanted the other Jose.

It's not all bad.

Daniel.

A point to be made. Places that collect Id information can database it. That inforamtion can be used for things it was not orginally intended for. A good example was the woman that was killed by the stalker all because she gave her real home address to the DMV.

Having ID and telling the truth to an officer about your name are two different things. But greyhound is not a officer of the court.

Keep in mind that a private detective can find ways to access records from any company including Visa/Master Charge. Governments can access records too if not controlled.

I could just imagine what woudl happen if the FBI was told by my neighbor that I was a terorists just because my neighbor didn't like me for some reason. Now the FBI looks at my VISa bills and sees for exampel a lot of flashlight purchases. Next thing I know I spend all day talking to the FBI, no being grilled by the FBI. Sure, I am not arrested, but I sure was hassled.

Oh, and I rally against a police state of ID cards. I don't use credit cards unless I have to. I use cash just so that I do have privacy. I have a drivers lincense, but I don't let people see it unless they are a cop or the DMV.

I don't give out my social security number either. Gee, how many people have gotten in trouble for giving out a social security number and ther drivers license? Can you say ID theft?

Bottom line is people have a right to privacy. It is a free country. And people that don't have ID or don't want to show it aren't criminals or up to no good. And if things aren't stopped now, were will things end up? Draw the line now.

PS - I am not saying any one is wrong, just trying to present a different view. It is funny how many times people will say it should be like this, and someone says well what about this, and they say well, I didn't think of that...

ID gone wrong. This actually happened to a cycling buddy of mine...

He gets notice in the mail about his license being suspended due to not paying a ticket in the northern part of the state. He remembers the ticket and paying it so he calls the local police up there.

They say the ticket is unpaid. He says he'll check his records and call them back. He checks his computer's financial software for the ticket amount and the approximate date. It is not there. He remembers writing the check and seeing the voided check come back in his bank statement..... so what gives?

He keeps looking through the actual old bank statements and finds the check, cashed a YEAR earlier than they said the ticket was issued.

He calls them and gives them the check #, date, amount, and more importantly the ticket # (written on the check). They say that THAT ticket has been paid, but not the other ticket that was issued almost an exact year later.

He asks them to read him the info off the "new" ticket. Last name matches, first name matches, middle initial matches, SSN does not match, and neither does the vehicle.

Apparently when the ticket was filed they saw his name/etc alredy in the computer and assigned the ticket to him instead of the real offender.

I imagine that if he had gotten pulled over in this time, he would have: gotten a ticket for driving with a suspended license and gone to jail.

So was this ID gone wrong, or would this be a good case for a more thorough ID system?

Big fancy ID system = bad.

And what happens when the RFID chip in your passport stops working? I'm sure it can happen.

When I get in a plane, I'd like to think that there are no known bad guys on there with me.

If the person getting the second ticket had used a computerized ID card with biometric validation, the ticket would not have gone to the wrong person. It was a case of operator input error having nothing to do with valid IDS.

In my state, a person who refuses to identify themselves to the cops IS a criminal by definition.

I figure anyone is welcome to retreat from society as they want. They can disregard the rules at their own peril. I don't care as long as they don't later take from society or demand that society bend to their will.

I'm not afraid that the FBI will want to talk to me. I know that if my neighbor makes a false report the FBI will bust them, not me.

I am afraid that we have a government headed by people who are extremist, and that they apparently have the power to make up things like the patriot act.

So in a nutshell, if you don't want an oppressive government you should make it as hard as possible for the government to oppress you. Vote them out of office! Don't quibble about ID cards when you use an ATM or Visa card every week.

Daniel

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georget98 said:
And what happens when the RFID chip in your passport stops working? I'm sure it can happen.

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Hmmm... I am scheduled to get my next passport by the end of this year (when RFID's will be generally implemented--if plans proceed as documented). I am sure the RFID will function fine and be used as designed--for at least the first few minutes after it comes in the mail...

I have been doing a lot of home repair lately and my passport may somehow fall into the security tag disablers (such as those at Home Depot or Orchard Supply and Hardware) though--Gee--I hope it survives and a hammer does not somehow fall on the chip later as I am working on the house...

-0x10248a4cd098f

double post

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PocketBeam said:
A point to be made. Places that collect Id information can database it. That inforamtion can be used for things it was not orginally intended for. A good example was the woman that was killed by the stalker all because she gave her real home address to the DMV.

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I think a stalker would already know where she lives, hence the STALKER designation. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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PocketBeam said:
I could just imagine what woudl happen if the FBI was told by my neighbor that I was a terorists just because my neighbor didn't like me for some reason. Now the FBI looks at my VISa bills and sees for exampel a lot of flashlight purchases. Next thing I know I spend all day talking to the FBI, no being grilled by the FBI. Sure, I am not arrested, but I sure was hassled.

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I would NOT blame the FBI or your credit card company. I'd blame that neighbor and he'd likely go to jail for lying to the FBI. Would you prefer the FBI not do any type of check when someone's reported as a terrorist???

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PocketBeam said:
Oh, and I rally against a police state of ID cards. I don't use credit cards unless I have to. I use cash just so that I do have privacy. I have a drivers lincense, but I don't let people see it unless they are a cop or the DMV.

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Police state of ID cards? I don't get it. You're already in the system. They have all your identify info. Do you think someone is actually cross checking every finacial transaction you make on your CC to see if you bought a flashlight or two? And so what if they did? I doubt anyone cares if you bought a few flashlights. Now if you bought a ton of fertilizer, some TNT and detonators and you're not a farmer or in construction or demolition, I personally would like it if someone came a knocking to ask why you needed this stuff.

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PocketBeam said:
Bottom line is people have a right to privacy. It is a free country. And people that don't have ID or don't want to show it aren't criminals or up to no good. And if things aren't stopped now, were will things end up? Draw the line now.

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Who is being arrested simply for not having an ID? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

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PocketBeam said:
PS - I am not saying any one is wrong, just trying to present a different view. It is funny how many times people will say it should be like this, and someone says well what about this, and they say well, I didn't think of that...

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That's exactly why I jumped in; just to show another side. BTW, I think a National ID is a bad idea right now. Not because I fear big brother tracking me or something, but because the infrastructure is not there to make it worthwhile. Without all the info some here are afraid to give up, there is no way to actually verify who you are and people will get a National ID card based on forged documents. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Just my two cents...

Having a bar code or mag stripe on licenses and passports isn't a big problem. It just means that when you present your license to someone (say to cash a check), they can copy down the info faster from it than they could if they had to type it in. RFID is a much worse problem because it can be detected from several feet away. You could, for example, build a small box that detects when any RFID-equipped US passport comes within a few feet of it.

Now imagine you're an anti-US terrorist and you connect that box to a few kilos of plastic explosive in a paper bag and leave it under a seat on a bus in (say) Israel, or Indonesia, or wherever. It just stays under the seat doing nothing until an American sits on the seat, and then, kablooie!!

Even if you wear tinfoil pants (or wrap the passport in foil), any time you go through a metal detector (those are showing up everywhere now), the foil calls attention to your passport, which you might not want to call attention to.

I don't know about you guys but I want to get my passport renewed before they start RFID in it.