I used to think that HA III would be entirely impervious (New word! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) to impact. Now I know this is not true after a certain experience with a LB Micra. So I was wondering, is there a flashlight plating material that is more durable than HA III? HA IV perhaps ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
Is there something more durable than HA III?
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Stanley
Flashlight Enthusiast
How about just a plain, simple, Titanium body flashlight? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
mokona2
Enlightened
Hmm.. I think hard chrome is a bit more durable. Maybe check into the refinishing options for handguns?
I have a friend's beat-up minimag body with nearly all of the enamel paint worn off.. may be a good candidate for refinishing.
I have a friend's beat-up minimag body with nearly all of the enamel paint worn off.. may be a good candidate for refinishing.
Kryosphinx
Enlightened
anybody know the hardness rating of HA III?
leukos
Flashlight Enthusiast
It is not a plating material, but SF's lights made of nitrolon have survived a lot of incredible falls and impacts with hardly a scratch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Hard chrome is way more durable than HA and not recommended for aluminum. electroless nickels bond to aluminum would probably be destroyed by the huge amps/time required to apply Hard Chrome on nickel.
problem with aluminum flashlight's durability lays not with HA which can be very hard.
Take a quality knife know to be 59 Rockwell. scrap it against quality HA. it will bounce off leaving HA unharmed.
Durability problems with HA come from these areas:
1. sub-surface aluminum is still soft. anyone that's dropped a light on concrete will tell you what happens.
2. due to how HA forms, edges will not have same depth of HA as flat areas. So sharp edges will wear first.
3. Caustic agents will destroy HA in a hurry. If I remember correctly, sulfuric acid is very gentle on HA, but Nitric acid will destroy HA. you can really tell, it's been awhile since I worked in a plating shop.
problem with aluminum flashlight's durability lays not with HA which can be very hard.
Take a quality knife know to be 59 Rockwell. scrap it against quality HA. it will bounce off leaving HA unharmed.
Durability problems with HA come from these areas:
1. sub-surface aluminum is still soft. anyone that's dropped a light on concrete will tell you what happens.
2. due to how HA forms, edges will not have same depth of HA as flat areas. So sharp edges will wear first.
3. Caustic agents will destroy HA in a hurry. If I remember correctly, sulfuric acid is very gentle on HA, but Nitric acid will destroy HA. you can really tell, it's been awhile since I worked in a plating shop.
Anodized aluminum is a coating of aluminum oxide, chemically the same as sapphire or ruby and exceeded in hardness only be some boron coatings and diamond.
The problem is not the coating but the soft aluminum underneight the coating. You wont scratch the coating but shear away the soft metal under the coating.
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
There is confusion in terminology as to scratch resistance is not the same as toughness.
The problem is not the coating but the soft aluminum underneight the coating. You wont scratch the coating but shear away the soft metal under the coating.
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
There is confusion in terminology as to scratch resistance is not the same as toughness.
rwolff
Enlightened
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is there a flashlight plating material that is more durable than HA III?
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Not a plating material, but I'd imagine a flashlight body made out of either tungsten or 316 stainless would be more durable than aluminum with a HA III coating. Needless to say, it'd be more expensive too.
is there a flashlight plating material that is more durable than HA III?
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Not a plating material, but I'd imagine a flashlight body made out of either tungsten or 316 stainless would be more durable than aluminum with a HA III coating. Needless to say, it'd be more expensive too.
ACMarina
Flashlight Enthusiast
How about that stuff they put in a truckbed? Duraliner or something?? If you got the smooth stuff without the anti-slip rubber beads in it, that would be pretty tough. And the rubber beads on the grip area would be cool. .
I might just try that with my old Maglite. .
I might just try that with my old Maglite. .
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Double_A said:
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
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I have several Chris Reeve Knives Sebenzas and Mnandis, which use titanium as scale material and which are tarted up with various inlays, or engravings and anodizations. Titanium is really tough, but it is not that hard to scuff or scratch it. Furthermore things like brass housekeys, made from softer metals, will abrade onto and leave deposits on a bead-blasted, as opposed to polished, titanium surface. HA III, IMHO, works a lot better for something like a flashlight that you actually carry around and use.
Double_A said:
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have several Chris Reeve Knives Sebenzas and Mnandis, which use titanium as scale material and which are tarted up with various inlays, or engravings and anodizations. Titanium is really tough, but it is not that hard to scuff or scratch it. Furthermore things like brass housekeys, made from softer metals, will abrade onto and leave deposits on a bead-blasted, as opposed to polished, titanium surface. HA III, IMHO, works a lot better for something like a flashlight that you actually carry around and use.
TiN or TiNC on a stainless steel or Ti substrate would be more durable than HA on Al in terms of abrasion or denting I would think but the thermal considerations are not trivial.
A polyurethane coating on the Al would hold up better to dents and dings than the HA but would not be as good on abraision. Such a coating would be a PITA.
My plater is doing a light for me now where he is sealing the HAIII with some other type of hard oxide but he won't tell me exactly what it is nor have I seen the results yet. It's his idea of the best film "package" for Al with appearance being secondary to function. I like the sound of it and am anxious to see what it looks like!
I think a real good solution is rubber armoring a light in the primary contact areas. I have a design of a new light in the works that is planned with a HA III finish and then augmented with rubber bumpers. After seeing PK throw a beast on the asphalt, I was sold on "bounce bumppers"! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Obviously a jagged or rudded terrain can still gauge or dent unprotected areas but the typical fall or header can occur without any damage. I have a prototype that has 1" OD head and tail guard and I stuck a SF filter/ beam shapper boot on each end. It looks goofy to be sure but I can send it bouncing down the driveway without damage.
A polyurethane coating on the Al would hold up better to dents and dings than the HA but would not be as good on abraision. Such a coating would be a PITA.
My plater is doing a light for me now where he is sealing the HAIII with some other type of hard oxide but he won't tell me exactly what it is nor have I seen the results yet. It's his idea of the best film "package" for Al with appearance being secondary to function. I like the sound of it and am anxious to see what it looks like!
I think a real good solution is rubber armoring a light in the primary contact areas. I have a design of a new light in the works that is planned with a HA III finish and then augmented with rubber bumpers. After seeing PK throw a beast on the asphalt, I was sold on "bounce bumppers"! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Obviously a jagged or rudded terrain can still gauge or dent unprotected areas but the typical fall or header can occur without any damage. I have a prototype that has 1" OD head and tail guard and I stuck a SF filter/ beam shapper boot on each end. It looks goofy to be sure but I can send it bouncing down the driveway without damage.
Cornkid
Flashlight Enthusiast
Its all about weight an durability. For that reason I will name some metals and their densities:
SUBSTANCE DENSITY
Aluminum 961 kg/cu.m.
Aluminum, oxide (anodized) 1522 kg/cu.m.
Chromium 6856 kg/cu.m.
Iridium 22154 kg/cu.m.
Iron Pyrites 2400 kg/cu.m.
SUBSTANCE DENSITY
Aluminum 961 kg/cu.m.
Aluminum, oxide (anodized) 1522 kg/cu.m.
Chromium 6856 kg/cu.m.
Iridium 22154 kg/cu.m.
Iron Pyrites 2400 kg/cu.m.
Cornkid
Flashlight Enthusiast
Its all about weight an strength. You dont want a flashlight that weight a ton (exageration) or one that will shatter if you give it to a 10-year-old. It all matters.
-tom
-tom
tvodrd
*Flashaholic* ,
Titanium Nitride over Beryllium. End of discussion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Larry
Larry
Cornkid
Flashlight Enthusiast
You have a point. It is expensive to handle and form, though. I havent seen to many of those.
-tom
-tom
Ratso
Enlightened
There are different aspects or characteristics of durability that must be considered: Impact resistance, corrosion resistance, hardness, etc.
For sheer hardness, a PVD (physical vapor deposition) coating such as Titanium Nitride, harder than steel itself, is one of the most wear resistant. It is commonly available in matte black and gold, and found on drill bits and knives.
Boron Carbide (BC) is a CVD (chemical vapor deposition) coating that is harder than Titanium Nitride (TiN), and as hard as diamond. In addition, BC is not semi porous like Titanium Nitride, so it gives complete corrosion protection. BC coating, IIRC, is a patented process by BodyCote, and is available in glossy black.
These types of coatings are the most wear resistant and the hardest. However, because they are incredibly thin, dings and impacts to the coated metal are easily seen. Powder coating, which is thicker, is more durable in this regard.
For sheer hardness, a PVD (physical vapor deposition) coating such as Titanium Nitride, harder than steel itself, is one of the most wear resistant. It is commonly available in matte black and gold, and found on drill bits and knives.
Boron Carbide (BC) is a CVD (chemical vapor deposition) coating that is harder than Titanium Nitride (TiN), and as hard as diamond. In addition, BC is not semi porous like Titanium Nitride, so it gives complete corrosion protection. BC coating, IIRC, is a patented process by BodyCote, and is available in glossy black.
These types of coatings are the most wear resistant and the hardest. However, because they are incredibly thin, dings and impacts to the coated metal are easily seen. Powder coating, which is thicker, is more durable in this regard.
tvodrd
*Flashaholic* ,
Diamond is up there too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I was told by a maintenance guy at work that an extruder barrel they had pulled out was diamond-coated. The coating looked to be ~.025" or so thick and had been chipped badly in several places. I suspect "lot minimum charge" will get your attention. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Larry
Larry
JonSidneyB
Flashlight Enthusiast
laminated armor
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newo said:
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Double_A said:
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have several Chris Reeve Knives Sebenzas and Mnandis, which use titanium as scale material and which are tarted up with various inlays, or engravings and anodizations. Titanium is really tough, but it is not that hard to scuff or scratch it. Furthermore things like brass housekeys, made from softer metals, will abrade onto and leave deposits on a bead-blasted, as opposed to polished, titanium surface. HA III, IMHO, works a lot better for something like a flashlight that you actually carry around and use.
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Poor Sebenza, you mean you don't carry and use it? I carry mine exclusively in it's pouch because it noticed the handle does look banged around when I carried it in my pocket.
newo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Double_A said:
Titanium could be used if coated properly, as uncoated Ti is soft also. If I remember correctly Mission knives had problems with some Ti alloys where they couldn't get above 45 rockwell. However Ti is tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have several Chris Reeve Knives Sebenzas and Mnandis, which use titanium as scale material and which are tarted up with various inlays, or engravings and anodizations. Titanium is really tough, but it is not that hard to scuff or scratch it. Furthermore things like brass housekeys, made from softer metals, will abrade onto and leave deposits on a bead-blasted, as opposed to polished, titanium surface. HA III, IMHO, works a lot better for something like a flashlight that you actually carry around and use.
[/ QUOTE ]
Poor Sebenza, you mean you don't carry and use it? I carry mine exclusively in it's pouch because it noticed the handle does look banged around when I carried it in my pocket.
