Electric & Alt Fuel Vehicles

OK, it is been WAY too long since I've ticked people off about EVs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I still spend more of my time on EV advocacy than I do on flashlights, believe it or not. My web page grows bigger every week (see my sig), and I seem to get more and more involoved every week. I moderate three or four (depends on how you count them) EV listerves when I'm not here. There are still no production EVs to buy from any source in the USA. It would appear that China will be the next big player to build EVs for the masses. Batteries continue to improve at an explosive rate (like 50-100% energy density increase every year for the past 15 years). And I'm still driving around with late 80's battery technology in my Rav4. And my Rav4 and my house are still powered completely by the sun that hits my roof-mounted PV array. While AC Propulsion seems to be the best bet for a great conversion in the near future - there are still no prototypes after several years of talk.

So there you're all caught up in a nutshell. There have, of course, been seemingly HUNDREDS of
past threads on EVs and Alt Fuel - search 'em out if your interested. I have no doubt that we'll get into some of the same issues that we've hashed out before, and that's to be expected.

Soo... what new and interesting questions or comments do YOU have on the subject? Who else is driving an EV? Who still thinks that H2 is a great thing with which to be powering cars?

I don't care where this thread goes, as long as everybody shows respect for others' thoughts and situations - and as long as it stays on any subject that at least has some relationship to Alt Fuel Vehicles.

And BVH posted this in the SHOT thread:

[ QUOTE ]
BVH said:
Hey Darell, just noticed the EV Nut in your signature. I've been driving an EV RAV4 for about 3 or 4 years now. I'm in fleet mgmt for a SoCal City and we've had about 20 of these over two, 3 year leases. They're fun to drive. Got a chance to drive an EV1 for a week - what a ROCKET! That thing really flew off the line! Rav's go back in April, no more EV! Just got 2 of 5 Prius's on order. Going to be converted to Hydrogen Hybrid. We're building a fuel station to support them. We're really into alt fuel. Have about 70 dedicated CNG vehs, including refuse trucks, street sweepers and Honda Civics.

[/ QUOTE ]

BVH -

Well, you've been driving a Rav for longer than I have then! They certainly work great, and ar a bit more practical than the EV1 - but nowhere near as fun to drive! We had an EV1 for as long as they'd allow us - two years. Was the most fun I'd ever had on four wheels. Smoking college studends in Camaros and Mustangs onto the freeway in almost complete silence is more fun than a middle-aged guy should be having. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I actually know which SoCal City you must be a fleet management with. Well, I don't *know* but I have a good guess. Not every city is so deep into Alt fuels - but I keep abreast of the goings on down there. SEveral of our listserve members live there. I like everything you guys are doing except the huge waste of money and resources of the H2 conversions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Tough to swallow the extra million$ that will have to be spent to create and fuel something that will be out-performed by the Rav4's. We could argue the pros and cons of FCV vs EVs until we're blue in the face, but I do wonder what your reasoned take is on the subject. I personally see no way of making a FCV anywhere NEAR as efficient as a battery electric vehicle. To the gross inefficiency of FCVs, add the huge cost of fuel, infrastructure and the original construction of the vehicle, and I see some major issues in the quest for FCVs.

We have a Honda Civic Hybrid. That seems to be about the best we can do here on the East Coast /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

From what I've read, it seems to make more sense to begin by converting factories to hydrogen before we worry about hydrogen powered vehicles.

`interesting battery technolgy i didnt know that which is the best kind litium?

Lazer -

Well, good on you for doing what you can. I'm often asked why, if EVs are "so great" why more people aren't driving them. The answer is, and always has been, "Because they are not generally available." And today the answer is that they aren't available to ANYBODY.

As for converting factories to H2 before vehicles - I'm not sure I see a reason for this. While static FC stacks make more sense than portable ones, it still takes 3-4 times the power IN to make a given amount of power OUT of a FC stack. There are some GREAT applications for FC stacks. Quiet backup generators, power in space... and there will be many more to come. For now, if your factory requires power in the form of electricity - you might as well just use it directly instead of throwing 3/4 of it away to make the H2.

[ QUOTE ]
raggie33 said:
`interesting battery technolgy i didnt know that which is the best kind litium?

[/ QUOTE ]
Today's proven technology is Li-Ion/Li-Polymer. With thousands of Li-Ion laptop batteries, we can make a sub-2000lb car that goes 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, and has a range of 300 freeway miles. Beats a 500 HP Dodge Viper in the 1/4 mile.

Because nobody is yet making vehicle-sized Li-ion packs, the cost of the batteries is, of course, prohibitive. But with SF 123 cells so cheap, we could make a disposable pack for a car like that for just a couple thousand $. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyone heard if the rumors about jaws-of-life operators getting electrocuted when cutting through the power cables of a hybrid car are true?

Isn't there a really big negative with electric vehicles in that you still have to produce the electricity to charge them? Sure some people can do the solar thing, but many people, who live in areas that would most benefit from a no pollution vehicle (crowded cities) would have no choice but to use mains power, and when they spend so long in traffic, battery life becomes an issue. If you have a couple million people plugging their cars into 220 volt outlets at night, then you also have to build more power plants, and those power plants would themselves make more pollution. Do they pollute so much less that it's worth it? Or does it even out? I know that a properly maintained internal combustion engine (even gasoline powered) that is warmed up, and going down the freeway doesn't relaly make that much pollution, it's the stop and go city and rush hour driving that makes them bad. But what about power plants?

Hey Darell,
I have a question about EVs. The weather may be nice in sunny California, but in my neck of the woods it was 25 degrees F. when I went to work this morning. And that's probably mild compared to the northern states. I'm guessing a BEV is going to have to run an electric heater to keep the cabin warm in those conditions. Can a typical BEV heater keep up with really frigid weather and does that defeat the efficiecy or economy of the vehicle? How about the effect on range?

Thanks!

As the load shifts from gas vehicles to electric vehicles, there will be displacement of power consumption from oil refineries (no small consumers of electricity themselves) to charging electrics. It's also far easier and more economical to control pollution at a few central sources than to control it at millions of vehicles' tailpipes.

Another efficiency advantage: electrics don't waste 66% of their energy like internal combusion engines. There is some energy lost during charging, and some energy that goes into powering auxilliary systemswhile the car is running, but you don't lose two-thirds.

Also, think of the money. You can recharge an electric vehicle for about $4-$5 at some of the heftier kWh rates. I spend $30-$40 to refill my vehicle every week. I'd love to save 80-90% on energy. I'd also like to lower TCO (total cost of ownership) with an electric that doesn't require as much service as an ICE.

As for jaws of life operators being electrocuted - seems just as likely that some might have caused an explosion when they cut through a gas line.

Hey Darell - how about some numbers from that RAV4EV of yours?
<ul type="square">
Range
[*]Average minimum/maximum per-charge
[*]Freeway minimum/maximum per-charge
[*]City streets minimum/maximum per-charge
Charging
[*]Maximum/Average/minimum time for full charge
[*]How many kWh for a full charge
[*]Average time and range for a quick charge
Other numbers
[*]nominal kWh rating of the battery pack
[*]kWh per mile on freeway
[*]kWh per mile on streets... with regenerative braking
[*]Average maintenance costs
[*]Major maintenance issues over the lifetime of the vehicle
[/list]
I'm sure others can add to that list...

[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:
Anyone heard if the rumors about jaws-of-life operators getting electrocuted when cutting through the power cables of a hybrid car are true?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not true. Not true for hybrids or electrics. The high voltage lines don't travel through ANY part of the vehicle that would be cut with the "jaws." You only have 12V in the doors and cargo area - just like any modern vehicle with auto locks and windows. Plus, the batteries are instantly disconnected in a crash (same tech as seat-belt tensioners and air bags) so there is no V in the power high-V lines after a serious crash. The high V lines are all obvious, and protected by shields that are bright orange.

This, unfortunately, is just one more pathetic "I'm scared of anything electric" rumor. Any amount of gasoline is far more dangerous in an accident than batteries will ever be.

Hey Darell,

Looks like we are going to be keeping you busy for a while.

There was an article in my local newspaper today, entitled "Hybrids are leaving 'alt-fule' cars in the dust". It goes on to say that...
[ QUOTE ]
...Automakers are retreating from vehicles that run on natural gas or electricity. Car makers say there's little buyer demand for so called "alt-fuel" vehicles; environmentalists say car makers aren't trying hard enought to market them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The jist of the article is that people don't want anything that doesn't run on at least some gasoline, because of inconveniences, and that there is litte to no market for alternative-fuel vehicles.

I was wondering if you agree about the low demand for alternative fuel vehicles. Is there anything we could do to try to increase the demand? Additionally, the article states that EV's can take up to 8 hours to charge. IIRC, can't you fast charge them somehow in like 15 minutes?

i just hope miles per charge go way up.perhaps in 1000 miles range.because for now there isnt as much places ya can recahrge the car as ya can refill ya tank{i may be wrong on this fact}

Unfortunately the automotive market has been shifting more toward the gas guzzling end of the spectrum and away from the economy/environmentally friendly end. I know hybrid popularity has taken off recently, but really this is just a small market niche at this point. The major market trends are that people are upsizing to the heavy SUV/truck/van segment and even in the car segment, cars are generally getting larger and more powerful. I have to believe that this is being driven primarily by consumer preference rather than other factors like corporate marketing strategies and government influence (although those may be making the problem worse).

So in addition to discussing what alternative fuel technology is the best to pursue, I think an equally important topic is why are consumers shifting to gas guzzlers and how to get the average consumer to actually prefer more sensible vehicles. If everyone just downsized by one step, it would do more good than 10,000 BEVs.

Unicorn said:
Isn't there a really big negative with electric vehicles in that you still have to produce the electricity to charge them?
------------

This is the most common general concern about EVs. Thanks for asking it instead of assuming the worst. Idle covered this nicely! Using electricity for these vehicles is the big positive because it CAN be made clean, even if it won't always be done that way - the potential exists.

Short answer: Even if EVs use the dirtiest way to generate power, they are easier on the environment than any gasoline vehicle of the same functionality. And as Idle mentioned - if we could magically switch from all gas cars to all EVs overnight, the impact on the grid would be minimal, and in fact could even ease some of our problems. EVs can be used as "peaking" generators - which are the dirtiest generators we have today in the US. While parked at work, hooked up to the grid, power can be sipped from them for local peak needs- and then replaced before the car is driven back home to be filled back up off-peak.

For a quick overview on some of the FAQ's I get, please read this: http://www.darelldd.com/ev/ev_faq.htm- and feel free to suggest any questions that I should add.

Quote: I know that a properly maintained internal combustion engine (even gasoline powered) that is warmed up, and going down the freeway doesn't relaly make that much pollution.
-----------

Quite true! But this ignores to very important aspects of gasoline vehicle pollution.

1. Much of pollution (and electricity usage!) from gasoline comes before it even enters the car's gas tank. Making and distributing gasoline is a dirty, energy-consuming process. Even if the cars made ZERO pollution from the tailpipe, they are still responsible for much upstream pollution from making gasoline. Most folks find it easy to consider the upstream pollution for EVs (power generation) but simply ignore the same upstream pollution for gasoline vehicles. Gasoline doesn't magically appear all clean and nice at the gas station!

2. Over 50% of US vehicle miles are short trips where the car never gets to operating temperature. EV vehicle emissions are zero 100% of the time, no matter how short or long the trip is. They excel at stop-and-go driving

I'll attempt to respond to these all in order... but I have a bit of life to attend to as well. Wasn't expecting such a huge response. But I LOVE to see it. Some great points being brought up. I especially the marketing/driver wants one, because I think that has more to do with this whole equation than much of this other stuff.. There are no easy answers to some of this, that's for sure.

man this is good thread i have many questions i may of asked em before but can never explain my self. ill try now
ok i heard only 10%of the power gas can makes is delvered to the rear wheeels of the vechicle.ok is there any thing that can keep it from somedays being like 80% i understand friction and etc etc. but can they reduce all thease to improve efeicancy

what exactly are your opinions on hydro cars?
i know you may have a thing or two against hydro cars (at least compared to ev's), so that means you probably know enough about them to know why they're not as good.

as i understand it, it requires more power to seperate the hydrogen from the water than it does to actually burn the water. this is the main downfall of the technology?
what could be done about that?

what about storage? if it could be used on the fly (as in seperated and burned on demand, with no cells for storage required), would this be a better method?