Questions about First SureFire Purchase

Hello All,
I just found this forum, and I'm glad that there are others who LOVE light as much as me. I am going to purchase my first SureFire light soon and was going to try to get everything I would need for a while. That is the E2 light,SC1 spares carrier, a lot of batts, and a replacement lamp. My question is: does the MN03 assembly contain the housing and a lamp, or just a new housing?

I have also followed the Brinkmann LX thread with much enthusiasm. I will probably pick one of these up for use around the house and stuff, but am I correct in assuming that an E2 is better for everyday carry?
I just read the thread about the E2 elite. Should I just wait a little while and get one of those? Also, would someone list the differences in the E2 and the upcoming E2 Elite? I hate being ignorant, but I have to cure it somehow. Thanks for any help or advice.

The MN03 is just a bulb, the reflector is part of the bezel. The E2 is a great light to carry on you and very compact. If you go to www.pk-engineering.com you can look at pictures of the new E2 Elite. Some people like it, some people hate it, but both lights will be available except E2 Elite won't be out to the beginning of 2002.

Hope this helps, take care.

Hello Alphamaniv,

Wouldn't it make more sense to first purchase a Legend LX, and see if it meets yuor needs.

Like ohter posts, I too have several Sure Fires and a Legend LX. I won't be buying any more SF's !

What is causing you to give up your SF purchases. Is the LX that much better? Or is it the cost/value basis? Heck, you can get the light for just slightly more than the cost of batteries in some areas.

The current E2 design is my favorite.
I don't know what the fuss is all about with the LX. I think it's pretty ugly, too much fancy styling, shapes are out of proportion, shiny aluminum and black(too much contrast), head is awkwardly large. Yeah it's cheap, but if you are willing to spend the money on pricey batteries then why not get something that looks a little better. Heck, for around 10 bucks more you get a Scorpion, which looks a lot better and appears more compact than the LX. In addition, 10 bucks is the price for an hour or two of light considering battery costs. Why get a Honda Civic if you have to use high octane gas?

It really depends on what you are going to do with the light. I use my Surefire E2 daily at work and depend on it working when I need it. For this reason, size, durability, usability are real issues. I wouldn't buy an E2 for a glove box, emergency kit or kitchen drawer. I have used the UKE 2L for these other roles, but maybe the LX will fit the bill? I do really like the waterproofness (is that a word?) of the UKE and the UKE is under $20 also, and quite small & light. Unless you really use the light regularly or for work I can't see spending more then $20 on a light of any kind. So for most people I would recommend the UKE (with the longer runtime) or possibly now the Legend LX.

Light Man,

Only 5 posts but you express insightful wisdom. You've been touched, if not blessed, by the light.

I think you really nailed it on the head in describing the LX. Granted, I haven't held one but you make a number of excellent points. One of my points is that someone (Brinkmann) is always trying to build a cheaper Porsche and people drone on and on about how the new (fill in the blank) is quicker, flys higher, handles better, is 80% of something and so forth. Guess what? At the end of the day it still isn't a Porsche.

My point is that something can always be made cheaper. In looking at 10 pages of posts, I don't really see anyone saying that the LX is better than the E2 in terms of durability, function, aesthetics or weight. Instead, people are focused on one primary thing - cost. Everthing else seems to be rationalized away in terms performance. Lower the bar enough and everthing will, at some point, be acceptable.

If you have tunnel vision and are locked in just on cost, then the LX is a bargain but cost isn't everything. I'd rather spend $10 more for the Scorpion if I didn't want the E2. And besides, what realistically are you trying to accomplish by buying a light that uses very expensive batteries with only an hour of runtime? Perhaps you shouldn't be buying it in the first place.

I think it takes some mental gymnastics, bordering on dishonesty, to say that you need this light when it costs a small fortune to feed and if you're using a light all the time, then a rechargeable is preferable. If you do the math, an E2 with its greater runtime will eventually be cheaper than the LX. But hey, why do the math when the light only costs $20.

Just my 2 cents...

Jeff,
Couldn't have said it better myself. I own a couple M2's, a Scorpion, and a Porsche. And I just ordered an E2. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, etc... Just give me what I like.

I think part of the attraction to SFs for many CPF members is their uniqueness. They are expensive, high-performance and relatively obscure. They have to by shipped in from some specialty tactical supplier. But with the LX they are sold a WALMART, the most generic store around. If everybody had an LX in their pocket, it takes a lot of the fun out of being a light freak and wiping out an E2 and embarrassing some one with a huge 6D. I all fairness, if the LX was only sold online or my tactical suppliers that I think that we/I would be less critical.

kbOrrg,

I have to disagree with you on this on but I do see your point.

Cost isn't my main concern in buying a light. Instead, I want a certain level of performance from my lights and SF meets that demand. If I looked at it strictly in terms of dollars spent, I'd be playing with matches for my light. I know that high performance costs, SF knows it and I'm very happy to pay their price.

With respect to Walmart, I'd love to be able to buy SF there instead of a tactical supply dealer. The tactical supply shop has them because Walmart doesn't think the product would sell. No matter where I get the lights, I don't favor one light over the other based on the seller's identity. It's not as though my M2 bought from AGR is a better light because it sat on industrial shelving in the same warehouse as some ammo, leather, M16 or teargas destined for LE or the military.

I bought my E2 from Brightguy. Love it. Wish I had a few more. It's neato factor isn't dimished one bit because of where I bought it.

I do see your point and I can see where someone might be more inclined to have a certain appreciation or fondness of a light based on the seller's mystique. It's just not in me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yeah it's cheap... ...Why get a Honda Civic if you have to use high octane gas?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly the point! It's cheap and produces nearly the same high quality light ONLY obtainable (up till now) from very expensive premium lights. It makes the "premium quality beam in a small package" available to the low-end consumer!

Why buy a Corvette when a Honda is cheaper and will get you to work just as well!

Some people look at cars as an status symbol, some look at them only as a means of transportation.

For those who want the light for the purpose of having small "high quality beam" producing light, the LX is the ticket. For those who want a "Corvette" - they can shell out the cash for the Streamlights and the SureFires!

alphamaniv,
I think flashlightdude is right, why not buy the Legend LX first to see how you like it, that way if you decide to change your mind about getting a lithium light, you're only out $20. For the price of new batteries and a bulb for the surefire, you could've bought another Legend and have two flashlights and two sets of batteries.
I came very close to buying an E2, right before the Legend came out. After buying the legend, I don't think I'm going to get one anymore. Yeah, the E2 is smaller, but I'm just not willing to pay 3 times the price to save an inch. I'd like to have the best flashlight out there, but it's just not practical. If you were to compare this like cars, it would be like comparing a Ferrari and Corvette. Everyone would love to drive the Ferrari, but what are you really getting for that extra money?


Damn, Quickbeam beat me to it while I was typing up my message! I guess I have to type faster. Funny how we both compared them to cars.

First, let me apologize for the length of this post - I am paying for it with sore fingers, but I love a philosophical argument provided no-one gets upset...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One of my points is that someone (Brinkmann) is always trying to build a cheaper Porsche and people drone on and on about how the new (fill in the blank) is quicker, flys higher, handles better, is 80% of something and so forth. Guess what? At the end of the day it still isn't a Porsche.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone said the LX was a "Porche" among lights. But it does bring the high quality beam and brightness of an E2 down in price to the point where the everyday guy can afford one - it's more like the Volkswagen: "People's car" - affordable, usable and has the most important quality of the high end tatical lights - small package, lots of light, really good beam.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My point is that something can always be made cheaper. In looking at 10 pages of posts, I don't really see anyone saying that the LX is better than the E2 in terms of durability, function, aesthetics or weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right, but again, it has the most important quality of the high end lights like the E2 - small package with really good beam quality, and the light output of a 4-D mag.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Instead, people are focused on one primary thing - cost. Everthing else seems to be rationalized away in terms performance. Lower the bar enough and everthing will, at some point, be acceptable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but this isn't exactly a brittle plastic 2-D light either. What exactly are you focusing on (pardon the pun), the functionality or the aesthetics... It is a FLASHLIGHT after all and the most important part of a flashlight to the everyday user is it's portability and the quantity and quality of LIGHT it puts out - not whether it looks pretty or can withstand 100 G's. Sure it's ugly, but it's aluminum, small, reasonably durable (from descriptions so far), o-ring sealed head (from what I see in the pictures) and produces near E2 quality and quantity of light.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you have tunnel vision and are locked in just on cost, then the LX is a bargain but cost isn't everything. I'd rather spend $10 more for the Scorpion if I didn't want the E2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But some people aren't willing to spend the extra 10 bucks - that's where the LX "fits the bill" (sorry again for the puns).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And besides, what realistically are you trying to accomplish by buying a light that uses very expensive batteries with only an hour of runtime? Perhaps you shouldn't be buying it in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... Perhaps getting the same basic lighting advantage you get by owning a E2? - Really good beam, bright light, small package? (BTW: the same argument you use could be used against buying ANY lithium powered light, including the E2!)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think it takes some mental gymnastics, bordering on dishonesty, to say that you need this light when it costs a small fortune to feed and if you're using a light all the time, then a rechargeable is preferable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if you're tired of lugging around a 4-D mag for the same amount of light. (BTW: your "bordering on dishonesty" argument applies as well to anyone who buys an E2 - it too costs a small fortune to feed! The Brinkmann just has a lower up-front cost.) But yes, a rechargable is a much better solution if you use it all the time. No Doubt!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you do the math, an E2 with its greater runtime will eventually be cheaper than the LX. But hey, why do the math when the light only costs $20.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I could use that argument to justify buying an E2 to my wife, I'd have one by now! It just doesn't cut the mustard for people who don't have the cash. Batteries are small costs over a long period of time (depending on use). An E2 is a serious hit to a budget all at once. You need to look at this from the standpoint of people who live paycheck to paycheck (which is probably a LOT of people in this country) but may want the same type of beam quality and light as you get from an E2. Brinkmann is filling that niche, and that's really what capitalism is all about, isn't it?

In addition, when most "common buyers" go out to buy a "high quality light" they think of a Maglight - and both the Brinkann and Mag lights cost about $20! Hmmmmmm.... What market do you think Brinkmann is going for here? Sure as heck isn't the person willing to shell out 80-250 bucks for a flashlight!

Don't forget that CPF members are a tiny niche in the market and catering to our "higher" tastes is usually very, very, very low on the priority list of those seeking broad acceptance of a product (with the exception of Peter G!). In the open marketplace, although many don't like to admit it, cost IS everything, as long as you provide an acceptable level of satisfaction on all other points (durability, etc).

That was fun, but my poor fingers...

Well said Quickbeam. To throw in my opinion, I will buy the LX when it becomes available in my area regardless of who sells it. I was ready to buy the E2 but the annoucement of the Elite has that on hold untill I'ts release. To conclude, my future known buys will be the LX for home and/or glove box, E2 Elite for EDC and the ARC-LS because I can't resist a new well made product. I like a good mix. More Power Always Corrupts

Quickbeam,

Sorry to hear about your sore digits but I'm glad to read your input even if we don't completely agree.

My main point was that the E2 is the Porsche and everything else is trying to emulate it. People are willing to buy the LX because of the perceived value compared to the E2. Yes, the LX isn't an el cheapo plastic thing but it isn't the E2. It depends on what qualities you want in a light and whether you're willing to pay for them.

I also think that if someone is so strapped for cash then the LX might not be the light to buy. If people can't really afford to spend $35 for the Scorpion or more for the E2, shouldn't the point be that perhaps you shouldn't be buying a light that uses the most expensive batteries in the first place. After I put the LX in the shopping cart, I also will need batteries and at the same Walmart those will set me back another $12-14. For one hour of runtime to boot! And now I'm seeing other posts from people so needing to have an LX that they are willing to pay $30 for plus tax and shipping.
The bargain of it all is starting to fade quickly.

Now if someone is lugging around that 4D Mag that suggests to me that this is a high use application and the cost of 123 batteries as a replacement for the Mag cannot justify the LX as a bargain. If cost is the issue, unquestionably alkaline batteries are less expensive.

Finally, I'm not sure that buying an E2 is bordering on dishonesty because of battey cost. I knew what it would take to feed the light and how much those batteries cost. Knowing this, I purchased the light and while the batteries are expensive, it was a cost I knew and accepted. No crying here.

This was fun and while we aren't in complete agreement, I do appreciate where you are coming from even if you're wrong!


PS - The E2 is cheaper to use in the long run. Just don't tell the wife that it will take years!

One other aspect here is for the person who does not use the light very much. The cool think about the Scorpion and the LX is that they are built well enough that you can be pretty sure they are going to work when you need them. Combine that with the Li batteries and it makes an ideal light to toss in the glove box of your car or put in an earthquake kit (or hurricane, or whatever). Same can be said for dropping one in the bottom of your purse or backpack.

I've ruined more than one Maglite because I forgot to change the batteries and they corroded. And even more often had the batteries be dead for the same reason (with little or no use). While I agree I should have maintained them better, I suspect I'm not the only one that has this issue.

IMO, this puts the UK2L, Scorpion and LX in a sweet spot to fill this need.

On the other hand, I was willing to pay for an M6 for use with things that go bump in the night and have a pair of 10Xs on order as the primary lights for the house (one upstairs and one downstairs). (Note to SF should you be listening: I would have purchased a 10X style dual-lamp light that took Li batteries over the M6 had the option been open to me.)

That said, I carry a Scorpion all the time. I would say I do like the E2 better than, but I don't think I like it twice as much (cost is about twice as much).

I think it's interesting in that SF kind of set a new bar for flashlight manufactures (outside of their tactical market). I think in addition, flashlights like the Scorpion and UK2L have redefined the market based on the footwork of SF. In all, I see this as all positive, because it means that it will raise the expectation of consumers and provide competition for the manufactures.

I think the LX seems like a nice light but I don't see it as ground breaking. It's just a bit cheaper, and not even a lot cheaper.

Back to the question about getting an SF you just need to think about what you want. The good thing is there is a fairly good selection of options these days so it is likely you can pick the tool that fits your needs the best.

Certainly, it seems unlikely you would go wrong with the SF, with the possible exception that a low runtime Li based light doesn't fit your needs. Note that SF and Streamlight make some very nice rechargeables if that is the case. It seems these make optimal around-the-house lights where it is easy to have the light in a charger in the closet.

-john

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This was fun and while we aren't in complete agreement, I do appreciate where you are coming from even if you're wrong!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I concurr, and you are entitled to your own opinion, even if it is different from mine and therefore even more wrong!

Just an FYI for everyone re: battery costs for this little critter, I'm seeing the e-squared Energizer lithium 123A's in a 2 pack at Walmart for $6.50 - not bad! Look around, you'll find them in some obscure nook!

If this is an E2 versus Legend LXyZ topic, then yes, a Ferrari and a Japanese Supercar at half of the price apparently do about equally well. Although the Ferrari has a "Cool factor" generally held to be higher than almost everything else.

But a SureFire is in a class of it's own - there aren't any lights that sophisticated and yet that simple at a greatly lower cost.

Of course, there is a price to pay for that. SureFires are around a price-point where the law of diminishing returns begins to bite hard. It costs ever more to improve an already good light to be even better.
What price Titanium, f'rinstance.

E2 or Legend LX, they both have their place. I think that the lines of the LX are lovely, quite a classic actually.

alphamaniv, if you want more answers to your E2 Executive vs. Elite questions, try the SF board, @ http://discuss.surefire.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=9

and check out the topic listings there for the total info.

lightlover

Btw, even as I type this, Stingmon is finding the LX a less than perfect buy, in Page 11 of Topic: Legend LX - First Impression, @ http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000724&p=11

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If this is an E2 versus Legend LXyZ topic,... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naaaah... I think we are just having fun arguing at this point...

The E2 is OBVIOUSLY a better light all around in construction, design, durability, etc. I dont' have one, but I would recommend it based on all the positive opinions I hear from our other members.It's just not all that affordable up-front...

Hey, I had to fight to get the Arc AAA LE under the "budgetary radar". The Legend LX costs less than that so that's what I can swing right now. Besides, if I lose it or break it, I'm only out $20. Not so with an E2.