I know this has been seen before, is it true?

Wits' End

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I've gotten this a few times in the last few years, or something similar. I know many here will appreciate it. But are the statistics true?

DOCTORS
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700, 000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120, 000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician are 0.171.
(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services)

GUNS
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million.
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors before it's too late.
Out of concern for the public at large, we have withheld the statistics on lawyers
for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.
 

PeterB

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I think it would be necessary to make additionally a statistics about the saved lives by doctors and guns...
 

Rothrandir

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a high number for both i'm sure!
i'd also bet that it'd be a much harder thing to actually measure...
 

shiftd

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like old saying goes, statistic does not tell the whole story.
I don't think this comparison is relevant anyway to generate any meaningful conclusion :shurg:
pointless...
 

Malpaso

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The one thing to remember is that in both cases, if a person dies, it is the fault of another person.
 

Icebreak

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I looked but couldn't find the stats. I too would like to know if they are correct; not because that would cause this conclusion to be valid, but probably like Wit's End, just general curiosity.

To clarify, I believe Wits' End's reference that he's gotten this a few times means that he's received it as a chain mail and knows it's bunk. It is all over the web on forums etc. and is used to substantiate opinions all the way from gun law topics to malpractice topics. Quite the little discussion starter it is.

It's a wonderful example of a conclusion based on many argumentative fallacies. Here are a few:

Anonymous authority: the authority in question is not named.

Undefined statistics: The definition of the facts are unclear. What is accidental?

Card stacking and the fallacy of exclusion (suppressed quantification): using selected evidence to make one's side look favorable, or omitting evidence that would undermine an argument.

Irrelevant conclusion (ignoratio elechi): an argument in defence of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion.

Obviously, I agree with Shifty.

But what if one were inclined to engage this conlcusion just for argument's sake? How would one respond?
[ QUOTE ]
PeterB said:I think it would be necessary to make additionally a statistics about the saved lives by doctors and guns...

[/ QUOTE ]

That was perfect.
 

Kiessling

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I have an easy solution for you ... don't see a doctor and you are set and safe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
bernhard

Other thoughts:
--> non-accidental deaths by guns vs. doctors?
--> lives safed by guns vs. doctirs?
--> ever been afraid of a doctor when walking around in a strange neighbourhood?
 

snakebite

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you can twist statistics any way it suits your agenda.
i heard there is a saying.
there are lies dammed lies and statistics.
 

Hookd_On_Photons

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The numbers are not perfect.

The study cited was published by the Institute of Medicine's report "To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System", originally published in 1999.

Data from a large study done on medical errors in Colorado and Utah, and one in New York, was extrapolated to the the number of total hospital admissions in the U.S. in 1997 (33.6 million). The rate of medical errors and the rate of fatalities led to the dramatic figure of 98,000 deaths per year (from the New York study data; the Colorado/Utah data yielded 44,000). To provide context, the 1997 mortality figures for motor vehicle accidents was 43,458, breast cancer 42,297, and AIDS 16,516.

The text of the article is available here (multiple pdf files):

http://books.nap.edu/html/to_err_is_human/
 

DarkLight

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Other thoughts are there has never been a massacre of a people or nation first without the disarmament of the general populace.

Hitler knew this well.


Doctors are of no use against a tyrant either.

Some times they even join his side to assist him in his evil endeavors.
 

bwaites

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"OFTEN TIMES" they join his side to assist him is his evil endeavors.

Define "often times".

Dictionary definition: More frequently than not, frequently, commonly.

I find it hard to believe that when you look at the total number of doctors in a situation, more of them than not would assist anyone in their evil endeavors.

Has it happened, of course! But looking at total numbers, semantics aside, it has never qualified as "OFTEN".

What happens is that we are so horrified when a doctor does do something like this that we paint any doctor associated with similar circumstances with the same brush.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread!!

Bill
 

Brock

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But what are the stats on automobiles /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I would be willing to be it is far worse then doctors. Remember doctors are people, and unfortunately they make mistakes just like the rest of us. I would be willing to bet those numbers include cases where people were going to pass anyway, unlike in car accidents...
 

Ronrph

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As someone who deals with doctors on a daily basis I can say that some of them scare the crap out of me. A few years ago there was a published drug interaction between Seldane and erythromycin. Seldane was later removed because of decreasing sales/ drug interactions. It was discovered that giving the two drugs together could cause heart arrythmias. When two doctors were called because of the interaction, one replied " give it to him he has a strong heart" and another replied " give it to him I'm the doctor here". Needless to say the combination of drugs were not dispensed.
In contrast may I say I also deal with some that are highly intelligent and also do a very good job in a highly complex occupation. As in any occupation you have your good and your bad.
 

DarkLight

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Well just the other day I asked how much an office call was for a doctor and they said 75 to 250 dollars.

I asked whats the difference and they really couldnt explain it. The only answer I could get was .."It just depends",

That wouldnt fly in any other business.
 

Brock

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It might fly with the price of airline tickets. How the heck they can charge from 150 to 1500 for two seats right next to each other is beyond me. It is illegal to do that in any other business...
 

bwaites

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Office visits costs are dependant on services rendered, A 10-15 minute, no complication, appointment may be $75 for a patient. A 45 minute appointment with blood work, an EKG, or other testing and complex decision making may be even more than $250.00.

Remember, you want the knowledge, diganostic ability, and decision making regarding appropriate treatment that he has. You are paying for that, not his time.

Remember that the support staff and facilities cost for any doctors office is incredible. Most offices run 3-4 support staff, or even more per medical provider. Most of those people do nothing but paperwork, trying to keep the insurance companies, federal government, and other regulators happy.

Doctors REAL income has plummeted in the last decade, while their costs have skyrocketed because of all the paperwork hassles.

A new patient visit is typically at least 30% more than an established patient because starting a chart and all the attendant paperwork is incredibly complex.

Bill
 

James S

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Medical errors can certainly cause deaths, but those numbers are a bit off the scale. I've seen several such things and most were based on a ludicrously flawed press release in 1999 from the "institute of medicine" which claimed that medical errors were the 8th leading cause of death in America. This is not true then and it's not true now. You can read the top causes of death in 2002 in America at that link and medical malpractice isn't even on the list, though there is a column for generic accidents. The 8th biggest killer of Americans is Alzheimer's disease at just under 59,000 deaths.

so that number is grossly overstated.
 

Samoan

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[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
It might fly with the price of airline tickets. How the heck they can charge from 150 to 1500 for two seats right next to each other is beyond me. It is illegal to do that in any other business...

[/ QUOTE ]

What?

I can buy a Benchmade 710 for $180 at one retailer. I can then go to an online discount vendor and pay $100 for the same knife. Not orders of magnitude but 45% off...

-F
 

James S

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lol, just reading Darklights post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Of course it depends, on what they DO to you or test you for while you're there. Thats not unusual or strange or in anyway different from anything else is it?

The more illuminating question is "whats the charge for such and such if I pay with cash vs if i use my insurance" most anybody that does procedures will have a cash price for it that is considerably less than if they have to bill your insurance since with insurance they have to work much harder to recover only a fraction of the bill.
 
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