LEO flashlight questions

I've been poking around the place over the last few weeks trying to get just enought info about flashlights to be dangerous. My problem is this: the department mandated flashlight is a Streamlight Polystinger that I absolutely hate for a myriad of reasons (breaks easily, no tailcap switch, low output/bad throw, etc). I was hoping for someone much wiser than myself to recommend some alternates with one caveat, no metal bodies.

My thinking was a SF 8NX Commander and a G2Z combination; I'd love to go G2Z only but I need a rechargeable to make life a little less costly. The Pina (sp?) 168s conversion has me a little nervous about reliability unless someone has experiences otherwise.

Suggestions for non-SF solutions and other experiences welcome (my apologies for the brevity and choppiness, but I have to run out the door).

the 8NX is a great light if you don't mind the expensive lamp assemblies... but i must ask, why no metal bodies?

Hi Dogboy, Welcome to CPF!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sounds like you're looking for a backup light? Maybe with a G2Z, instead of worrying about the battery, you could get one of the 3W LED drop in modules for it instead. That way the batteries last for much much longer. Throw might be less than the stock P60, but brightness is probably just as good. Anyway the Pila rechargables (or any rechargables) would blow out your stock incandescent lamp assembly right out, its recommended for use with LEDs only, unless the lamp is made for such a setup.

Else an easier alternative to the G2Z might be the Pelican M6 or M6 Led, but then again you said no metal bodies... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif The newly released Gladius might be an option too, but I admit I'm not up to date on the light, so am not sure what your options will be for a rechargable system or LED light on the Gladius... Hope you find what you're looking for! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Gladius is not an option for "dogboy" as it is has an aluminum body.

I really cannot think of any decent non-SF polymer\rechargeable flashlights..hmmmm Have to get to work on the that!

The SureFire 8NX (polymer called Nitrolon) might be a good choice if they have straightened out their rechargeable battery issues. The price is right. Puts out a good quantity and quality of light.

The lamps in my experience have been rugged.

There is no rear switching to fail as you are literally moving the battery foward to engage the lamp assembly. The positive and negative connections on the battery are on one end.

Hi Ken, sorry, my bad... like I said I haven't been quite up to date on the Gladius, sorry... nothing against you or the product, just that I haven't been doing my homework, that's all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

P/S, I just read your post on this thread here, and I am impressed!! Thanks for the pics! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

PP/S, Oops... sorry to get a bit OT here... and now its back to your usual programme...

I would guess that some law enforcement agencies do not permit officers to carry metal flashlights to avoid the possibility of it being used as a weapon.

Is the Aimshot total delrin? http://www.aimshot.com/xenon.php
I will not say of SF quality by any measure.

SORRY- Delrin and aluminum body -same as Tacm III light.

The Polystinger is a good light. I'd suggest the following from this link:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=814972&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

This is mod will turn your 3.6volt Poly into a 7.4volt light using a 9volts, readily available Streamlight TL-3 bulb. It uses two Pila Li-Ion cells and a custom metal battery tube. The only metal showing will be the tail cap end.

I've used this with my Stingre on duty, adn it's a really good light. I also tried the tube in my poystinger without any issues.

The Pila cells and TL-3 lamp are readily available via mail order sources.

-dan

Dano, I didn't mean to offend with the comment about the polystinger; I actually own two of them and think they are excellent lights for non-tactical purposes. Back when I was a Firefighter/EMT it was my backup light to the streamlight lanterns we carried (The only fragility I've seen with them is the switch assembly). My frustration right now stems from the fact that it is the only light the department will currently allow us to carry and isn't a good light for law enforcement work in my opinion.

My biggest frustration is the lack of a tailcap switch and having what I think is called around here a "clicky switch" (correct me if I'm wrong). The lack of a tailcap switch means that the light must be held with the lamp end towards the thumb side. For almost any other situation, this is not a problem, but when you are attempting to use a gun at the same time things get tricky. Holding a flashlight this way allows you to use only two different shooting positions, the Ayoob and Modified Harries. While not terrible, each has some drawbacks like reduced support/lack of isometric tension (MH) and the chance of depressing the magazine release accidentally (Ayoob). The clicky switch is also problematic as during stressful situations your fine motor skills deteriorate, making the chance of clicking the switch to constant on fairly high. That, and finding the switch after drawing the light out is difficult and hard to replicate consistently to make it a muscle memory movement.

For me the most preferred method of shooting with a flashlight is the Rogers/Surefire technique (why I want a rechargeable version of the G2Z) or the Harries technique (used with an 8NX Commander sized light).

I posted the question to see what was available as alternatives to those two, the rechargeable option for the G2Z reliability situation, and any experiences other shooters have had with these or other lights.

Lightraven, you hit it on the nose: the department is somehow worried that I might use an 8 inch metal flashlight as an impact weapon when I carry a 21 inch expandable metal baton for that very purpose right next to it. No one ever said bureaucracies were logical...

I would also recommend the SF8NX, but you might want to consider a G2 with the KR1 rechargeable kit. It's drawback is the run time is only around 40 minutes (with the 65 lumen P60 lamp assembly - less run time with the 120 lumen P61 lamp assembly); but if the rechargeable battery does run down during your shift, you can remove the rechargeable adapter and battery, drop in 2 123A batteries, replace the tailcap, and you have a G2 again. The KR1 kit will also fit the G2Z, but you'll lose the ability to use the light as a "combat" light.

You might also want to look at Pelican's M9 rechargeable flashlight. It is about the same size as the Polystinger, but (IMHO) has much better beam quality. It does not have a tailcap ("tactical") switch, but the switch is easily found (even with gloves). The light and lamp assemblies cost less than the SF 8NX (and I think costs less than the G2 with KR1 kit). I'm currently using an M9 at work, and have been very happy with it.

Be safe.

Mike

I am not an expert on your usage, but I am guessing that the dept. picked these somewhat for consistency of chargers, both wall and in car, as well as the legal issues of a non standard stick ?

Perhaps a slight stealth mod might be in order to keep it looking like your stinger poly, but perform a little better.

First the bulb - I did a quick search of the carleylamps site, and there is a bulb called a halogen / xenon model 1122 which is also a bipin type. I am not sure if it will fit, but it puts out nearly 140 Lumens, which is not bad.

There might be someoone who has one for sale on cpf in BST if you post a search for it. The incan guys have all of those type of bulbs. In a poly body, you pretty much need to stay with an incan bulb, as a power LED really needs an Al body.

If you post a "mod wanted" in the custom and modified section, with your desired improvement, you might be surprised what this very creative group will come up with.

A Stinger XT has tail cap button and uses the same charger as the other Stingers. It also have rubber grip, so it might pass as poly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sigbjoern

Well, if your departemnt has issued a side switch light, then you were trained with that side switch light, therefore, switching to a tailcap swicth light would require retraining.

I don't like the 8 series Surefires. There is no switch in the tailcap, just a rubber membrane and a small piece of black felt like material. The membrane has a tendancy to rip, and the overall "switching" mechanism is dependant on moving the battery stick with your thumb to have it contact the two springs in the head of the light.

-dan

Can I ask why you are so set on using a rechargeable? With the low cost of the CR123 batteries nowadays, te whole rechargeable argument is pretty moot. Batterystation.com 123s' are excellent and are only a dollar a piece for forum members. Consider that when you are shopping for replacement rechargeables. Ka-ching!

I have the G2Z and love it. I also have the High Output Lamp in there for 120 lumens of retina searing light. Might want to consider that as well. I also have the beamcover on it to protect the lens and not accidently let that bright white loose before I'm ready.

Also, they might not want you to use metal bodies for electrical conductivity reasons. You might want to check out the value packed G2 as well. Real bang for the buck there...

Modified Harries????

Mike Harries, an Arizona deputy sheriff, developed his technique long before Laser Products/SureFire was anything more than a distant dream. IOW, he used Kel-Lites and other lights with 'conventional' switches, employing an overhand grip with the index finger on the light switch. That's the same grip used with a tail cap switch light, except the thumb is on the switch instead of around the light body.

I'm not trying to get confrontational with you, but I was involved with firearms training for a very long time, and one of the banes of a police firearms instructor is armchair commandos who hang out a shingle and proclaim themselves a "trainer", write magazine articles galore, and in general exploit the thirst for knowledge.

Mike Harries was the real deal, as was Bill Rogers. That other clown you mentioned is a charlatan, pure and simple. He's got a lot of folks hoodwinked, though... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Interesting, Steve. Part of the problem is that the people who are "the real deal" don't often write magazine articles or offer training courses.

Even in my agency, the officers who have successfully defended themselves rarely, if ever, become instructors. Even their experiences are not used as learning points.

Frankly, a lot of our firearms training comes right out of the latest gun magazines . Up until recently, empty hand training was the latest craze--Brazilian jiu-jitsu. One of our guys went to the ground with a punk and got the crap kicked out of him by the other 3 punks still on their feet.

Considering all the real life shootings and fights we have (not to mention what is happening with other agencies and even the military in Iraq and Afghanistan), it seems ridiculous to rely on the techniques of people who spend all their time at a standard shooting range, dojo or their computer keyboard.

Exactly so, Lightraven.

What is maddening about it is the scores of officers who think, "Well, its in a magazine,so it must be true!"

Sorry, dogboy, I didn't make myself clear. I meant to ask what is a "modified Harries", and I side-tracked myself. from your post, I gather that you were under the assumption that the tailcap switch grip was the original Harries technique; such lights did not exist when he developed it. If I misunderstood, sorry again.

But I'd like to know what you consider a "modified Harries".

Steve,

I could very well be mistaken on what the original Harries technique specifics are as I've only been officially instructed in the "modified" technique. I also get the feeling you're under the impression that I lack a certain amount of respect for the three gentlemen who created the techniques discussed in this post; to the contrary, all three shoot, and understand shooting, at a level I can only hope to achieve someday. If I came off annoyed it is because I am currently frustrated with my weapon+light shooting and have found that the Rogers technique is my most preferred, something that I'm unable to do with the polystinger I'm mandated to carry.

I understand the Harries technique (regardless of the type of switch used) to involve holding the light with the lamp end toward the pinky side of the hand and either manipulating a "standard" switch with your ring/pinky finger or tailcap switch with your thumb. The support hand crosses under the shooting hand and supports it with the back of the hands touching.

The modifed technique I was taught, along with the Ayoob, involves flipping the light so the lamp end is to the thumb side of the hand and the thumb operates the "standard" switch (not sure of the technical name for that placement of a switch). For the MH (bear with my description), the support hand is palm up with the shooting wrist resting (unintended alliteration) on the support wrist and the back of the shooting hand touching the back of the support thumb. Personally, I found it awkward and less effective than the Ayoob (Everybody has a preferable style and why all three techniques exist), but I had trouble with the Ayoob and getting my splits down; I "lost" the position during recoil.

To give you an idea, my current two-handed (no light involved) 10 yd two-shot draw drill ranges from 2.05 to 2.25 seconds when I want guaranteed hits (upper end when shooting cold) according to the Pact timer at the range (only 9 ring or better is considered a hit for us). Decent, but needs improvement. My splits range about .15-.25 using a DAO trigger and my six shot draw drill hovers a little over 3 seconds at 10 yds as well. I'm attempting to give you an idea of where my shooting is right now when there is no light involved. My shooting is not where I want it to be, but I'm working at it and am looking to get some vacation time when the Rogers School is offering their intermediate shooting course in VA; I've heard he can do some impressive things for your combat shooting.

Now, put a flashlight in my hand with either the MH or Ayoob and my splits climb into the .4-.6 range and reloads are scary long, between 3 and 4 seconds. Considering I'm on midnights and spend most of the shift with my flashlight in my hand, this is a bad thing.

I had a chance to borrow a Z2 recently (I think, it was one of the SF types) from one of the guys who works the range (he carries it on his duty rig) and got to try the Rogers technique. Whole new world: My splits were no longer measured with a sundial and I can reload without having to call timeout. What works for me is something that I can't do with my existing equipment.

I'm not sure where/what the magazine articles thing was from or about; the only articles I've ever read about shooting were the ones posted on the "learning" board at the range. There was one by a guy named Enos that talked about the mental aspects of shooting, and another by someone else about the importance of dry-firing and how often and long to do it for. Both were very helpful as small little touches to the instruction I had and continue to receive.

An overly long answer to explain where I'm coming from and hope to get to in terms of my shooting with a flashlight.

[ QUOTE ]
Lightraven said:
Interesting, Steve. Part of the problem is that the people who are "the real deal" don't often write magazine articles or offer training courses.

Even in my agency, the officers who have successfully defended themselves rarely, if ever, become instructors. Even their experiences are not used as learning points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happens in our department as well; two range staff instructors were forced out when the new Sergeant attempted to make the place "his." Problem is, both of them had actual experience in surviving shootings and could say with authority what it takes to do so. They were the only two forced out and the only two with real experience; however, everyone left has no problem lecturing anyone on what it takes to survive a shooting...

As for the officer who took on 4 guys and picked BJJ as his chosen method of defense/attack in that instance, I think the choice was made incorrectly.

One on one, maybe two on one is OK for BJJ but obv you're gonna get the boots in if you don't know what you're doing.

To be competent it would be better to have some sort of cross-training, for example - MMA(Mixed M. Arts) in place of a specific art. In this case, BJJ is a NON-STRIKING martial art, not the best choice for taking on 4 punks on the street.

I think it is important for officers to rely on unarmed/restrained violence where possible/practical.

Officer safety, being the most important factor, doesn't always allow for this unfortunately.

My $5.50

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif