frustrated with CPF modders

For a bunch of tech savvy flashlight nerds the modders who do runs of custom lights seem to pick the most backwards way of conducting sales I've ever seen.

With all the awesome E-commerce tools out there why not just throw up some oscommerce, skip the paypal (and paypal fees) and have a click-through ordering system. It's not that hard. And you'd save money over paypal fees.

And a simple website that lays out information about the product, is that really too hard to do? Just get a skinnable or themed website, use something free like postnuke.

I think such solutions would save money for the producer (lower C.C. fees for sure) and produce more sales (ease of ordering and access to information).

I know you guys create some awesome lights, but it can be extreamly frustrating to order them.

Mr. Bulks current run is an excellent example. it's an absolute mess trying to keep up with that's going on with that, and the ordering/payment system is a pita. Drop the price, drop the labor intensive and pita 'hand selected' serial number (or incorperate that into os), lower the c.c. fees, etc. It seems counter-intuitive to go with a real dealer for the sales and then paypal for the c.c. processor.

I've ordered just once from Electrolumens because frankly his website is too cumbersome. Info is hard to find, unorganized, bad menus, etc. and again, paypal.

I don't even know what the USL is? Couldn't find pics, info wasn't organized anywhere. At the very least it seems smart to update the first post in a thread to contain all pertinant information + pics. Should I buy one? well I'm too late, so I guess I won't miss what I don't know about.

I've been tempted by CNC-123 lights, but it's a pita to figure out all the info on them, the various options, a description of performace on the various options -- runtimes and lumens of different drivers. Is the light worth the $$, probably is sure... is it worth my time to figure out all the particulars of the product by combing various threads and then figure out how to make payment... no.

For being members of a cult of technology, cpf modders sure seem to shun the internet tools that are at their disposal.

No, I don't want cheese with my whine, I'm just pointing out that coupling the most advanced handheld lighting systems (and most expensive) with stone age sales practices doesn't make sense.

and now I'll smile, so it's all light hearted (pun intended) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Some CPFers do not have (or even qualify for) credit cards, so having Paypal available is a plus.

You can get PP without a CC? I didn't know that.

Don't do it Maxa! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good point, but:

One only needs a bank account for visa/debit cards.

Visa/debit cards aren't the most consumer friendly cards... so if you're concerned with banking safety, open a free bank account and keep just enough $$ in it for your internet purchase.

I have several friends who can qualify for many credit cards, yet they only have and use visa/debit cards.

yeah you can PP with just a bank account, I'd never do it, but some do.

Data,

Go to the USL (part 3) thread first post, all the links are there.

The problem is not the people, or the desire to do it better, its that forums are not good sales tools. Most of us would love to have a website, but we have REAL jobs too. Until we make enough from multiple runs, we can't pull it off unless being a computer guy is what we do. (I don't!)

Being savvy in one thing doesn't make you savvy in another. I can stumble my way around the web, thats how I found CPF, after all. Building a web site, well out of my reach for now. Of course, I COULD take some time off from builds and figure it all out. How about it USL buyers, gimme about a 2 month break to sort thru the web site stuff, would ya?

I go to work at 6 AM, come home at 6 PM and then try to make lights, keep people updated and still come up with new ideas!

Someone who is computer savvy could help, but can you do it for what I can pay?

Bill

I think I'll stick with MOs. PP is nice. I guess I could get it if something of extremely groundbreakingly awsomly cool goes on the B/S/T section. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bwaites, I can relate... there's never enough hours in the day for me to get everything done, or to learn everything I want to. Usually though there's some low-energy/effort solutions.

Modder's have a great resouce, I bet 1/3 of CPF member's are very web savvy, and would take lights in trade lol (NO, that is not an offer)

And actually the work is cheap even if you have to pay, try www.rentacoder.com I've had good luck using folks from that site.

The problem is really not just the paypal aspect, it's much more systemic than that.

There is something to be said about cooking over a fire versus gas or microwave.

I think what's being missed is the fun of the whacky unsophisticated sales. There is a sense of fun in being the 3rd person to opt for a new light. Some enjoy the anticipation of the announced ship date approaching. Some just like the comraderie of knowing 147 other folks are making the same foolish buy.

Then there's the hype as a sales tool. If the only ad is the announcement and a review and the web site takes care of ordering, a full 1/3 of us would never hear of some lights. The threads where people order are a great marketing tool.

I do tend to order from the ones with good processes in place. I only buy from really bad web sites if I really need the product.

Daniel

Regarding Wayne Johnson at Elektro Lumens, I've sent him emails, and he's responded with prices and extremely reasonable postal shipping rates to Canada. He takes Canadian money orders payable in US funds. I'm perfectly satisfied with my transactions with him. I don't have either a paypal account or a credit card. The only negative is the 2 or 2 1/2 week turnaround time via the postal systems. I'm okay with that; it just adds to the anticipation factor.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm not jeering Wayne, or any of the other modders.

The level of customer service and ethics on this board is consistantly astounding.

It's more of a 'constructive critisicm' and perhaps a general question about why not aim for organization and making it easy on the consumer.

Gadgetlover, I agree that the 'small-town' feel is awesome, but even in the short year or so that I've been invloved in CPF the traffic seems to have doubled. Now it's a lot harder to follow topics over several days, or find the various threads that all have little peices of the needed info.

At least with the LH there was just 2 big threads. I could click view all and do a keyword search for info if I needed to. Now I have to look at 3 or 4 little threads, on different pages of the forum... cumbersome.

I agree that the current sales model, the "I'm in List", is less efficient, less fair, and more disorganized than most other e-commerce options.

I can understand how the process of purchasing these boutique lights is frustrating with wondering where in the thread the picture is or where was the paypal address? More time and effort could certainly be spent "marketing" these custom wonders.

What I question is whether I would prefer a more commercial approach here on CPF. I actually enjoy watching the serial number shuffle for the Li-on Cub. As long as it doesn't bother the list manager, why should it bother me?

There is also much to be said for following a thread with all the variety of input out for everyone to see. I think this is an important part of the "sense of community" that I enjoy here.

Why wouldn't the modders want to sell more lights, more quickly, for more profit, and with less hassle for their customers? I really don't know personally. But I would venture to guess that the answer is that profit is not a highly motivating factor. It seems to me that the primary driving force for these lights is the desire to make the best light. Mass production and quick time schedules are often contrary to innovation and quality.

If this is so, then why should the modders take the time to market their products any different? Perhaps they figure that they took the time and effort to make this thing of beauty and it's only right that it goes to people who take the time and effort to research what it's all about and how to aquire one.

I would say that part of the price of the latest and greatest is wading through the posts and all the inherant disorganization of the current system. If you don't need that certain serial number or the newest technology, you should be able to find most everything available sooner or later on B,S,T.

Greg

I've got to agree.

Sometimes I'll stumble on a light that I have never heard of before, but it has been around for a while, and it can be really difficult to find out information about it. There usually isn't a website about it, just a bunch of different threads and a series of fragmented updates

People who follow things from the beginning usually do alright, but jumping on midway can be a hassle.

CPF is not Target.

Part of the exclusivity comes from having to work for it, to wade through the threads and everything. Such is the CPF system of extremely custom lights. They tend to sell on their own merits, without even being marketed. Look at the sign up list for the Lioncub even before information about the light was available. That shows the degree of faith in its creator and that is simply amazing.

Computerization is only useful when it saves time - whose time is also subjective, but usually, the one deploying it will expect to see some payback, so I'll work from that perspective. Deploying osCommerce to sell 70 lights isn't really productive, even for someone familiar with the technology. Add that to the fact that not everybody has the required infrastructure - servers, PHP, apache, MySQL, yadda yadda, to be able to put up the site. To someone who does it as a career (and that would include me) it's not hard, but a novice sitting at their home PC wondering "What's PHP?" - it could be intimidating and I understand.

If it was a business (as in for-profit business rather than small runs of lights) an investment in a website would be good, such as the Sandwich Shoppe, their site is definitely one of the better ones available and automation enables them to sell more product. But to most of them here it isn't a business. It's bringing great lights to the community.

I sell lights too, and half my workflow is manual, because it would be easier to do it by hand than to computerize it. However, the front-end ordering is completely web based and includes realtime quantities because there was some benefit to it.

Typically the modders will get a willing third-party to handle it, for example the Lioncub/USL lists, and all the changes that go with it. It works out pretty ok, too. Volume is not everything to the modders as well, in fact, Mr Bulk has curtailed the number of Lioncubs available this summer rather than deal with so many of them.

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't the modders want to sell more lights, more quickly, for more profit, and with less hassle for their customers? I really don't know personally. But I would venture to guess that the answer is that profit is not a highly motivating factor. It seems to me that the primary driving force for these lights is the desire to make the best light. Mass production and quick time schedules are often contrary to innovation and quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

nethiker... I believe you've nailed it square with that paragraph! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif ... If these guys wanted to be in the flashlight business, they would be. Lord knows they have the product! But that's not what they want. And would their products be so special if they were mass produced and you COULD buy them at Target? Not likely. No... what makes their lights so valuable and special is because they aren't even interested in what Data has suggested. And personally... I wouldn't have them any other way... your mileage may vary, of course... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

When I asked some basic questions about the USL light I was basically chewed out and told to peruse thousands of disjointed posts and countless threads.
Told thats part of the process and MOST people have been following it from the beginning so THEY know this stuff already.
Well excuse me for being interested in something I hadnt noticed a long time ago.

I asked about the price and was told you must first sign up for it, the price would be set LATER, AFTER the sign up closes...

Now they did give a general cost involved but could not nail it down..

Just seemed weird to me to close the sign up before a def price is set..

Not all of us are rich enough to buy things before a price is set.


So naturally I removed myself even though I was quite interested in the project.

But I dont send away for mail order brides myself with a blank check and NO PICTURE! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can't speak for others, but some of us do things at or near cost. If I only build 1 part, I have to include the cost of driving around to pick up parts, tools, etc. This means that if only 3 people want something custom it may cost 50 each but if 10 people want one it might come out to only 20 each.

So if a modder can't say what his cost will be he may have a hard time throwing out a price that will either cost him money or will make him feel like he's taking advantage of folks.

BTW, some of the modders do it just for the fun and the ego boost that comes from doing a new light well. The process of selling them is no fun at all!


Daniel