No exploding Surefires?

I wrote Surefire, asking them about how their flashlights hold up to battery failures that might result in bursting. They replied,

"We have never had any of our lights explode in anyway shape or form. Short of somebody purposely making it an explosive device, the chances are slim to none. . . ."

There are certain features about Surefire lights that make me think this might be true, but it seems like I have read about at least one case.

What do you guys think? Is that claim too god to be true, or is it why we pay $$$ for Surefire? Does anyone know of a verified Surefire kaboom?

Scott

Scott,

Playing Devil's Advocate for a second;
Just because you have read about it doesn't make it true.
Just because you have read about it doesn't mean SureFire have.
Just because you have read about it doesn't mean SureFire have been able to verify it.

Anyway,
The flashlight itself "exploding" or "bursting" is extremely unlikely. They are constructed such that they would vent rather than burst or explode if the batteries when critical.

It is possible there is some confusion over terminology but even so, I believe SureFire are stating the facts as they see them.

If there are incidents then it is vital the flashlight company involved is informed and the product returned.

I do not know of a single reported case of battery failure in any 123A flashlight that can not be explained by user error or non-USA made batteries (or a combination of both these).

It is obvious to me that if you follow the instructions and use USA-made batteries the risk of an incident is 'slim to none'.

Al

Hi Al,

I realize the reliability of second hand (or more distant) reports is not high. But I also know the extent to which some attorneys will advise their clients to deny things like this. I didn't mean to imply that either should be taken at face value. That is actually why I made the post.

And I fully understand both the low probability of having a problem and that the vast majority of problems is due to improper use. I am not interested in any of that.

What I am interested in, quite simply, is whether or not any of them have ever exploded "in any way shape or form" for any reason at all.

I don't want to exclude mattery mismatch problems because they are a good proxy for a defective or damaged battery that was used properly but undetected. Only rumors and hearsay should be excluded.

My question is: regardless of how it happened, can these lights withstand severe battery failure or not?

The answer to that question is not, "oh, that almost never happens; don't worry about it." Probability is beside the point.

Scott

[ QUOTE ]
beezaur said:
What I am interested in, quite simply, is whether or not any of them have ever exploded "in any way shape or form" for any reason at all.

My question is: regardless of how it happened, can these lights withstand severe battery failure or not?
Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

SureFire have answered your first question: No exploded SureFires have been reported.

Your second question is more complicated. I don't believe any flashlight can withstand "severe battery failure" - rapid venting and possible ignition of gases. There are two ends to a tube. Either the lens and lamp assembly will be ejected to allow venting, or the TailCap will.
In the three cases I've read online of SureFires experiencing this venting I understand that the bezel allowed the gases to vent. One of the SureFires had a Z32 bezel and LiSun CR123 batteries.
I do not recall the details of the other two. I believe one was a Classic 6P (no LockOut, Lexan lens).

Thanks, Al.

Good to hear that even a 6P (probably) vented.

The more I study my two recent Surefires, the more amazed I am at the amount of thought and work that goes into them. I trust very few things implicitly, but these lights are comming close to being added to the list.

I still don't accept such a pat answer from Surefire. An example of why not is some vehicle insurance policies I have been covered under. The driver is contractually obliged to deny all wrongdoing, no matter what happens. I have been bitten more than once by trusting manufacturers' accounts of reliability too.

I asked them specifically about venting versus bursting and they gave me an absolutist reply about exploding. To be expected, and says nothing about Surefire as a company.

But I will say that with such a dearth of incidents, their claim probably is more true than false.

Scott

[ QUOTE ]
beezaur said:
Thanks, Al.

Good to hear that even a 6P (probably) vented.

The more I study my two recent Surefires, the more amazed I am at the amount of thought and work that goes into them. I trust very few things implicitly, but these lights are comming close to being added to the list.

I still don't accept such a pat answer from Surefire. An example of why not is some vehicle insurance policies I have been covered under. The driver is contractually obliged to deny all wrongdoing, no matter what happens. I have been bitten more than once by trusting manufacturers' accounts of reliability too.

I asked them specifically about venting versus bursting and they gave me an absolutist reply about exploding. To be expected, and says nothing about Surefire as a company.

But I will say that with such a dearth of incidents, their claim probably is more true than false.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Surefire isn't always forth comming with their information.

You should ask about the G2 and the wall locker fire in a Nuclear Power Plant.

SureFire Fire

The SureFire cells are also notorious for leaking white caustic goo out of them, FYI.

In the recent battery explosion thread, you'll note that not only the flashlight exploded, but so did the both the batteries, one for certain, being a SureFire cell. If you look at the cells, you'll note they didn't simply vent, where a flashlight vent would let out the venting material, but the batteries themselves exploded, shooting out the guts of the batteries in the explosion.

Think about it.

A vent isn't going to help much at all in this situation.

Thanks, that locker fire was one case I had in the back of my mind. Too bad it wasn't witnessed directly.

The thing I wonder about with the Pelican case is reaction rates. The batteries went pretty badly, but what would they have done if the pressures, and therefore temps, didn't get so high?

Maybe that battery explosion was exacerbated by pressure/temp driving rates to extremes. Smokeless powder isn't so bad when unconfined either.

I am not trying to defending Surefire. If it is true that they vent at relatively low pressure, some of these extreme effects might be avoided altogether. Right now it looks to me like their lights are legitimately safer.

Scott

The best way to proceed is to do what we do - do not mix batteries and following the manufacturers instructions for use and storage.

There have been recalls of 123A batteries with likely defective crimps before after a number of issues/incidents were reported [to what ever organisation deals with product recalls in the USA]. Lisun is one brand and there was another. These were not made in the USA.

Al

Even if this potential exists do the risks outway the benefits? I mean we drive cars which use petroleum and diesel fuels which are both combustable in different circumstances. We carry gas/petroleum backpacking stoves and there exist numerous hazards in our homes. In all of these cases the risks are ever present that something could go wrong (usually but not exclusively operator error)but we accept that the risks are small and continue to use these devices. Although I have always been aware that batteries can vent and do potentially have the ability to explode I do not stop using devices which use them as the alternative would be to return to the dark ages.
Unless I hear of frequent problems with lithium powered flashlights I accept the risks are exceptionally rare and will continue to accept that anything which is electrically powered or which stores chemical energy has the potential to be dangerous!
Doug

[ QUOTE ]
dougmccoy said:
Unless I hear of frequent problems with lithium powered flashlights I accept the risks are exceptionally rare and will continue to accept that anything which is electrically powered or which stores chemical energy has the potential to be dangerous!
Doug

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I haven't weighed in on the recent 'flashlight explosion' thread, but basically, my take is, lithium offers enough benefits without any other replacement in sight, with few enough incidents that it should be reasonably safe. Nothing is ever TRULY 100% safe.

There was this book about how risky it is even to get out of bed, you could slip in the bathroom, boink your head, and see Great White Light of a kind not found on earth. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif ridiculous? But before we laugh, it is a possibility. We can never say it will ASSUREDLY never happen. However, the likelihood is small enough that it doesn't keep us out of bathrooms. We gotta go sometime right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smoker5.gif

Given the thousands and thousands of CR123s out there in use right now and the tiny proportion of accidents, I'll keep carrying mine.

If my memory serves 3512 people were killed on UK roads in 2003, ten times that were seriously injured. We have far more life-threatning things to get all worried about!

I have to chuckle at this situation as it is really not much different than a certain plastic framed popular firearm that seems to have a tendency to blow up from time to time, we call them KABOOMS or KBs. The fact is if you follow the instructions, use good ammo and take a modicum of care the chances of this happening to you are extraordianary and this is a gun we are talking about that is designed to handle explosions on a regular basis.

I shoot a lot so I am much more likely to have firearm go off out of battery or some other incident then I am to have a flashlight supernova on me.

I think like anything a few documented cases tend to scare people. It is perfectly natural. Heck Tornados scare the bejuzzus out of me but the statistical chances of me being injured or killed in one is next to nothing.

Like Size15s said buy quality batteries, install them correctly and take a small amount of care as far as storage and carrying and I would be willing to bet you would win your local quick pick lottery many many times before you had a flashlight KB.

Chris