My employment dillema (sigh)

I work at a local Office Depot in the copy and print center. My supervisor (the copy and print center manager) just quit 2 weeks ago without notice. i have been with the store (and the company) about 3 months now. I get 8.50/hr to make the store a lot of money by doing everything properly and not screwign anything up and avoiding redos...unlike my manager who had to do everything twice to get it right and was on my *** about paperwork that wasnt my responsibility.

I work 40 hrs a week, but i'm considered part time...no benefits, and flex schedule...which sucks, cause my gf goes to school at ISU...2hrs away, and i need consecutive days off to go see her....and preferably weekends.

the store went through a lot of management changes over the time i have been there cause it used to suck a lot cause of the way things were mishandled. in the process of getting back on track, there are many new people being hired at the store cause we are short staffed.

i was offered my supervisor's position, which doesnt involve much more than what i do now....a little more paperwork and ordering supplies and such.

the perks: raise to 10/hr., full time status...weekends off, mon-fri 8am-4pm., and full benefits...basically for overlooking everyone who is getting hired to cover both shifts now in copy and print, 3 people under me.

the crap: the store still doesnt make much money and what i say, in the whole scheme of things, like suggestions on the way things should be run (i've had 2 years experience at Kinkos beforehand, so i know what can be improved) would have slim to no chance of being improved due to the tight budget...and now increased payroll. (lets not go into the fact that Kinkos STARTED me at 9/hr with no expericnce and i was making 10/hr when i left)

my mom recently gave me a heads up on a job that could pay more (12/hr-15/hr) home audio and video installation. I freelance now and give out business cards at my day job for all the stuff in my signature...mostly computer work, software training, and networking. and i make at least 25/hr doing that, after i get off work and on my days off. this seems like an ideal job for promoting my business and getting a lot more clients instead of staying at office depot and handing out 1 or 2 cards a day to people who probably have no use for them in the near future, where i can be doing tech work for 4-5 people a day who most likely all have computers, networks, and small businesses.

i dont know the details yet, or the availability of the A/V position, the exact pay, or the benefits (if any). but the managment position would look good on a resume, especially at 21, and i dont want to tell them no outright cause if i dont have that, i'll have some other asshole telling me how to do my job, about which i know 3 times more about than he does. i also dont want to take the management position and then quit a month later and screw them as well.

decisions decisions.

i suppose i'll wait till i find out more to see how likely the other job is. even 10/hr is rape for me, when i make 25/hr on my own, but this 8.50 is just ridiculous. if i do apply for the management and dont get it, i'm gonna quit for sure. i'll lose self respect otherwise, cant take much more of this.

Leon

Its nice of you to worry for Office Depot and think about how you may screw them over by taking the management position then leaving soon thereafter. I personally think though that you shouldnt worry about it too much. I am sure they could bring someone else in very quickly. Plus, I am sure that it happens to them frequently, as it does for any business that employs *younger* people and part time. The management position would, for sure, look good on a resume.
I too soon will be doing the same thing. I wont be getting paid anymore, but about 6 months before I know that I am going to leave my current job, I will ask to become a manager. I know I will be given the position since I am constantly the best at what I do in our district (our store and about 15 others). But then I will be leaving to go off to something else, I just want that on my resume.
For now, go for what you CAN get, that being the management position. Worry about them (Office Depot) later. Or not at all. If you can become a manager in less than three months, I promise they can get someone else in there if you were to quit very quickly. The benifits is a major plus too. You would then have a set schedule in which you can plan around. That would be REALLY nice to have. Weekends off, nice.

Thats what I think.

Cameron

Judging by your last paragraph, it sounds like you've made up your mind already. Best luck!!

work a day job and do the pc work on the side until you can live off it. and raise your pc work rates.

I'd say take the other job. $10 an hour and a title as a reward for all you've done seems to me like they're screwing you over, so don't worry about screwing them over by quitting. They'll get someone else, believe me. All these employers that pay lousy salaries are used to high turnover. It never enters their mind that by maybe paying 50% more then can get and keep better people, avoiding the every few months ritual of training new staff as well as the legions of dissatisfied customers who take their business elsewhere. $10/hour in 2005 for a management job? It amazes me what a lot of jobs pay nowadays. I used to make $11/hour back in 1990, and even then it was no great salary (the overtime helped though).

I also think turbodog's suggestion is a good one. Since you obviously have more talent than most positions require aim to eventually work for yourself. It's much more satisfying than working for unappreciative bosses and cheap companies doing the same thing day in and day out.

Short-term management on the resume does more damage than good. Management positions are investment positions for the company. I wouldn't look twice at anyone with less than 2 years management unless they were applying for something entry or non-supervisory.

Also, keep in mind that in reality OD is probably doubling or more your real compensation with those bennies. If you've never added up those things you should.

Finally, a good rule of thumb when comparing a permanent full time position with benefits with a 1099-style position is that the self-employed position needs to pay about 2.5x as much for you to break even. Quarterly filing, paying your own insurance, setting up your own retirment accounts. On the plus side you are your own boss and are wholly responsible for the success or failure of your venture.

What Samoan said. And keep in mind that 90% of de novo businesses fail. All those folks who say to me "Isn't it great you have your own business. Isn't is wonderful to be your own boss" don't realize how reassuring it is to know that there'll be a paycheck at the end of the week when you have a "real" job.

As far as being your own boss -- there's no such thing. Try to find Bob Dylan's song "Everyone must serve somebody".

Good luck.

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Samoan said:
Finally, a good rule of thumb when comparing a permanent full time position with benefits with a 1099-style position is that the self-employed position needs to pay about 2.5x as much for you to break even. Quarterly filing, paying your own insurance, setting up your own retirment accounts. On the plus side you are your own boss and are wholly responsible for the success or failure of your venture.

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I wouldn't say 2.5x in many cases. In fact, it seems that when I make a given amount of money I actually see more of it than I did as an employee, and I certainly put in far less hours since I usually bill at $50/hour or more compared to the lousy $11 before taxes that I used to make. I work at home so I save on carfare. I didn't have insurance on my last job and since I have nobody depending upon me I don't need it now. For retirement I just open IRAs same as I would if I worked for someone. I file my own taxes. It's not as hard as the accountants would have you believe if you're self-employed or even an S-corp. Quarterly filing? I imagine if you owe enough at the end of the year you need to in order to avoid penalties but I have yet to cross that bridge. For the type of things Leeoniya mentioned he does he would be in a similar situation to myself. The types of businesses which sometimes fail are those which have lots of ongoing expenses, like rent or employees. In my case, I really can't lose money since I have no additional expenses when I have no work. The only downside of course is not having a steady paycheck, but unlike working for someone else there is unlimited upside potential. Besides, companies cut loose employees at a moment's notice these days. That's hardly what I'd call steady.

i enjoy freelancing immensly. cause it gives me good money...(when it gives anything) and word of mouth spreads like wildfire. also, i know that short term management is worthless. and i really dont need to have a friken salary cap over my head for 2 years in a department that hasnt made significant revenue in many years. but the immediate perks are quite tempting, i couldn't give a crap about the title.

i'd rather be a design engineer, or some sort of technician in an R&D department. where i can see my work change things for the better and be made more efficient and say: "I designed that" or "i implemented that" not put sales goals on paper for the rest of my life. it's sad that management makes more money than the people actually responsible for doing the groundbreaking work.

for me, i like being down in the trenches and knowing the details of how everything works and finding ways to improve it.

ignorance is not bliss. ignorance is the mother of all f*ckups. if only i had the resources to do everything i want to do. sadly, venture capital is often given under conditions that have hidden agendas.

I never planned to keep this job longer than 6 months. and i look at people who have worked there for 6 years, have a wife and kids, and make less than i do still. I asked the guy, "what are you thinking?" all i got was a shoulder shrug. i hate seeing smart people, or people with a lot of potential letting their brains rot away. i myself have to keep reading popular mechanics, popular science, take classes in automation, electronics, CNC machines, networkingm just to feel like i'm moving in some sort of forward direction. i hate doing the same thing every day.

my ultimate goal isnt to become a millionaire, although that would be alright. but i want to make enough money where i dont have to worry about putting gas in my car. and having the funds to invest in things i think are truely useful to design and manufacture. not cheapass catalog throwaway crap you find on infomercials at 3am.

my girlfriend used to hate me for not holding down jobs and not being ever content with a "normal job" because i didnt follow moronic directions given to me by people who were themselves being yelled at to enforce ridiculous nonsense. she yelled at me for dreaming of making a lot more money doing my own stuff than i ever could following someone else's agenda. she was apologizing to me for 2 weeks straight after i made $1500 in 4 days on one network job.

at my current job, i dont let any of the managers give me BS. i do my job, and i do it damn well and better than most others could. and they respect me for getting it done and bringing back big customers they havent seen in a long time. I'm hoping to get an offer from the A/V place real soon and tell the Office Depot store manager: "hey, what am i worth to you?"......cause he gave me the whole speech about how he didnt want disgruntled employees when he found out i was looking for something else. i was like "Mike, $8.50? I made more at my first job in 1998. and i have 2 years experience in the business at your biggest competition since then."

my sister makes 11/hr. as a restaurant hostess. she's 18. and has been working there for less than a year. most of that is tax free as well.

Leon.

Well, being that I work in the same industry, I feel within my rights to comment. Honestly take the position as a Copy & Print Center Lead or Specialist (varies from region to region) but plan to stick it out for at least a few months, or else it doesn't really look good on a resume. Also most places will not consider being a Department Specialist or Lead as being a manager, so unless Office Despot has changed drastically and now has a Copy & Print Manager, then you wouldn't really be a manager. However, most places will view 6 months in a Leadership capacity very favourably, while if you do it for just months an then quit, it will seem like you were unable to handle the job.

Secondly, I can't believe that in the Illinois market you would only make $10 per hour as a Lead, since I know in the Texas market (with significantly smaller Copy Center Sales)as C&P Lead makes about $11-12 per hour, plus benefits. You should see if you can't get at least $11.

Third, as long as you give them a 2 week notice your not screwing them, because they will handle the situation just like they always have to in those situations, by replacing you. Now the two weeks notice is important, just in case they call your previous employers and they mention it.

Thomas

I think a big part of the problem Leeoniya is that the kinds of jobs you and I would enjoy doing and be good at are in very short supply. That isn't to say they don't exist-they do. However, with companies and the government cutting back on R&D there are less and less jobs for "tinkerers" and creative types. Sadly, there is less and less manufacturing done here as well. Manufacturing can be the source of many high paying and interesting jobs as well. All we are left with is mostly service jobs which are extremely boring with lousy pay. I decided to go on my own 15 years ago when I saw that most available jobs paid poorly and could be done by someone with a sixth grade education. Sadly, based on what you're saying, it seems it's only gotten worse. Those few who have interesting and well-paying jobs should cherish their good fortune. The vast majority don't.

BTW, I still can't comprehend how people can support a family on less than $10 an hour like that guy you mentioned who was there six years. I couldn't even afford to support myself when I was making $11 an hour 15 years ago when things were a lot cheaper. I know two incomes helps, but even with husband and wife both making $10 an hour I just don't see how people make ends meet nowadays. Or maybe they don't, which is what all the revolving credit debt and bankruptcies are all about.

There's just so much to say, but it's hard not to sound pushy....

First, it's not really a managment job in retail until you start seeing a quarterly or yearly bonus. I've seen management bonuses equal better than 1/2 of the yearly salary at Payless drugs (a west coast chain that's now Rite-aid). I understand that's not abnormal.

Then there's the "managing" part of the job. If you are still in the mindset where you think of the "company screwing me", you probably will not excell as a person who will train, guide and evaluate people while trying to look out for the best interests of the company. The part I hate about being a manager? Knowing that I can screw up other peoples lives.

Then there's the self employed aspect. If you are getting $25 an hour for freelancing you should be reporting it on your income taxes. You should also be paying a self employment tax to make up for the social security taxes that an employer would have paid on your behalf. I have to agree with Samoan and bigiron. My wife is freaking now that I'm freelancing and between clients. The security of a paycheck is quite nice.

My favorite remark in this thread was about having to work for a less experienced boss. LOL! This will happen many, many times during your working life. Some may even say that most of your bosses will know less than you. The rational is that they are supposed to manage the business and the people. YOU are supposed to do the work, not them.

My second favorite was:
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i'd rather be a design engineer, or some sort of technician in an R&D department. where i can see my work change things for the better and be made more efficient and say: "I designed that" or "i implemented that" not put sales goals on paper for the rest of my life. it's sad that management makes more money than the people actually responsible for doing the groundbreaking work.

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First, of all the work I've done as a tech, 90% never made it to market. As a
tech, I worked many 7 day weeks and many 16 hour days without extra pay. I spent almost 6 years working on really neat products at the phone company, even going to trade shows to publicize our work. All of it was scrapped. I eventually went back into data and security so I could have some job satisfaction. (that should elicit some laughs)

If you want to be a millionaire, get an MBA and learn how to sell the work of others. That's how you get rich. Every corporation has to have a CEO, and that person always makes more than anyone else and knows nothing but marketing. There's a reason that managers make more money; they set the pay scales.

At 21 years old, it does not matter much which job you choose unless you plan to do it for the next 4 or 5 yaers. After all, you are choosing between jobs, not careers. If you want it to caount on a resume, get a job in the profession that will be your life's work.

Job: a piece of work; specif : a small miscellaneous piece of work undertaken on order at a stated rate

Career: a profession for which one trains and which is undertaken as a permanent calling

Good luck

Daniel

Well I thought I made the point that it wasn't management. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif But its great to reiterate it.

I'd like to second everything you just said, as it is right on the money.

Thomas

well, my career would be in engineering of some sort, i knew that when i was 10, and i know that now. i finished 2 years at Purdue in mechanical engineering before my dad got laid off and told me he wouldnt co-sign loans with me anymore. out-of-state tuition is rape in its purest form.

i'm not much for ego stroking. an i do agree that it's just a bs label, but it's a supervisor position of sorts, which is one rung up the ladder from what i have now. the only real managers are the one assitant and the store manager...that and the short, null personality, lesbian, stalky, ***** of a DM that comes around every week and has the store manager licking the floor in front of her very feet as she walks through the door. every time i see it i feel like throwing up.

all of my coworkers are appaled that i can talk to her and the store manager like we're buddy-buddy, and not be trembling in my tiny little spaceboots in fear of saying something wrong or offensive and losing my lameass job. i've already mentioned that it's quite sad to see smart people so afraid of losing jobs that pay practically nothing. pussyfooting around management, and bending over is not something that should dictate your job stability. unfortunately, thats far from the real-world truth.

one of my clients, a retired multimillionaire told me a story about one of his friends...also a multimillionaire.

he had his own business and he was already well off but wanted to see how he could improve his business practices. he hired five MBAs who worked for a month to come up with a 2 inch thick report on how to improve his business.

the short of the report could be summed up in the statement "change everything"

he proceeded to fire every one of them and double his net worth in 2 years - never hiring another MBA to this day. his own clearing house was bought by Merill Lynch many successful years later.

i'm not sure what the lesson here is. but it's definitely a funny story from which something can be learned.

Leon.

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jtr1962 said:
I imagine if you owe enough at the end of the year you need to in order to avoid penalties but I have yet to cross that bridge.

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Be real careful here. In fact, be more than real careful here, trust me, you do not want to mess-up with the IRS. You can get away with not filing quarterly if you've paid in 90% of your tax liability for the year, or over 100% of your liability from the prior year. (I forget the exact % - it probably changes every year anyway.) If you have underpaid significantly, or even just try to pay it all at the last minute, they can penalize you. If you find out on 4/15 that you *spent* all the money you owe them, you are in lots of trouble. I'm not sure how they are today, but they used to be able to tell you how much you could afford to pay them. Let me say that again - you didn't tell them what you could pay - they told you. Even with the kinder, gentler IRS of today, getting in trouble with them is no fun, I expect. And it's easy to avoid, if you take out your taxes as soon as you get paid, sock them into CD's that mature quarterly, and then use the CD's as they mature to pay them quarterly.

This isn't necessary if you aren't making much money, but if ever a significant chunk of your income comes from freelance / self-employed work, you'd best pay attention to this. My best advice is to consult a CPA - they can help steer you straight, and a good one can think of all sorts of legitimate ways to save you money, and keep you out of trouble.

The millionaire that hired the MBA became a millionaire how? By hiring others and paying them as little as practical. most likely. The other thought was that he sold out to Merill Lynch, which is run by MBAs.

When I was a "technical manager" I was told many times over that the only way to get rich was to work for yourself. In college I learned about the economics of being able to resell your employee's efforts at a huge profit. As a business owner I only wish I had another 10 of me willing to work for what I accepted 5 years ago. I could triple my income.

OK, back on topic.... If you want to pursue a career in mechanical engineering you should look for a job in that field. The experience is invaluable and you can always finish your degree in a local state university at a fraction of the cost.

BTW, as a tax payer, I strongly feel that out of state tuition at publicly owned and operated schools should be well ABOVE cost. The school was built and paid for by people in my state. It should be used by resident students first, and only excess seats should go to foreign students. My state taxes should not subsidize students from out of state or out of country.

For those that think the tuition covers the cost of higher education, the California 2004 budget allocated $11.9 billion (from taxes) to pay for state colleges and universities. That does not count tuition.

Alright, I'm off my soap box. Sorry!

Daniel

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MrBenchmark said:
Be real careful here. In fact, be more than real careful here, trust me, you do not want to mess-up with the IRS. You can get away with not filing quarterly if you've paid in 90% of your tax liability for the year, or over 100% of your liability from the prior year.

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Yes, I know about that rule. Also, you need to owe them more than $1000 (I think) before any penalties regardless of whether or not you've broken those other rules. With what I've made I usually don't owe much, if any taxes, which is why I haven't needed to file quarterly. As I've said, my self-employment situation is far from ideal but it's all I've got at this point. If I ever make enough to potentially owe a lot in taxes I can consult a CPA to do my taxes one year, look at the loopholes he used, and then do them myself from that point forward. Taxes aren't rocket science. The hardest part is reading up on the tax law. The amount you save on a CPA makes that time worthwhile. I have a cardinal rule about not hiring on a regular basis anybody who makes more per hour than I do. What CPAs charge is highway robbery relative to the education they have but they get away with it because their friends in Congress pass purposely complex tax legislation which many people simply don't understand. I have three words to fix that-national sales tax. It would save everyone (me included) the bother of filing every year.

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Leeoniya said:i finished 2 years at Purdue in mechanical engineering

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finish up at an Illinois school. Look at the costs for going to Southern Illinois Edwardsville. or Carbondale. You could work part time, get some student loans, and start an engineering job four semesters later.

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gadget_lover said:
Then there's the self employed aspect. If you are getting $25 an hour for freelancing you should be reporting it on your income taxes. You should also be paying a self employment tax to make up for the social security taxes that an employer would have paid on your behalf.

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You can legally get around the self-employment tax by filing as an S-corp, not paying yourself a salary, and passing through the S-corp profits to yourself. They then get entered on your 1040 form and are subject to regular income taxes, but you save yourself 15.3% less whatever the annual fees are to maintain an S-corp in your state (usually $300 or less). And you have no idea how many IRS publications I had to read through to find out about that. I haven't done it the last two years because I've made so little that it's actually been cheaper just to pay the self-employment tax (and I get Social Security credits as a bonus). You may not like it, but it is legal, and also only paying into Social Security during years when you have a small income gives you a much higher return when it comes time to collect. It's a way of gaming a lousy system in my favor. I'm depending more on my IRAs in my old age anyhow than Social Security. I don't really plan to completely retire anyway if I'm still doing things I enjoy. The notion of retiring to sit around and play golf or go fishing seems incredibly boring to me.

And yes, you can (illegally) get around paying any taxes at all if you don't get a 1099 for your freelance income and are paid in cash. Unfortunately, most people send them out if they pay you more than a few thousand dollars because it is a tax deduction for them. Under $600 they don't legally have to send one out, and then you're truly on your own reporting the income. I don't know Leeoniya's situation but if he gets cash and doesn't have large amounts of savings which can't be explained by his earnings then he is pretty much on the honor system. Just a word of advice-don't talk about things like that online, or even on the phone. Loose lips have gotten more people in trouble with the IRS than anything else. In the absence of "confessions" if there is no paper trail as far as the IRS is concerned you made nothing. Legally they still have the burden of proof. If you're cleaning up on side jobs wonderful, but keep it to yourself. Don't even tell your girlfriend, parents, or even wife, and use the money only for cash purchases with no paper trial like charge cards.

Disclaimer for previous paragraph: If anyone follows this advice don't come crying to me if you still get in trouble. You should be paying the government what you owe because, well, they can put you in jail if you don't.

JTR, I'm suprised at that advice regarding hiding income. It's always a bad idea to get into the habit of trying to cheat on your taxes. It may be only a few hundred this year, but 10 years from now the habit will be set when he's an adult and making real money.

Ethical behaviour is always worth learning and following.

Leon, if just two or three of your customers report that they paid you and you have not declared it, an audit could be disasterous. A family member found out the IRS can "impute income" as if you regularly cheated on your taxes. They decided that he failed to report $60,000 because he did not report two $2500 cash jobs in one month. IRS logic? They decided he probably did that every month. The back taxes and fines bankrupted him.

BTW, I have known many CPAs, the ones accused of being responsible for the convoluted atx code. None of them have chortled over the complexity of the tax laws. The laws are so complex because the house and senate use taxes (and tax breaks) as a way to reward or punish certain behaviours. You'd be suprised how few conspiracies there really are.


Daniel