Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180 mpg by adding batteries. note you need to add kilowatt per miles cost.
Hybrids plug-in
Hybrids plug-in
Hybrids plug-in by adding batteries
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PhotonBoy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
The rising price of gas may push many to go in this direction. Battery technology still has a way to go, though. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
The rising price of gas may push many to go in this direction. Battery technology still has a way to go, though. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
Hey Photon boy, Why not do that with a hybrid? Sell it every two years and buy a new one. The battery is actually warranted for more than that. That's complete, free replacement if the battrey fails during the warranty period.
I find the "MPG" figures are a bit misleading. It's really miles per gallon + miles per kilowatthour.
One would assume that if the car were charged daily and driven only on batteries (a few miles per day) it would get thousands of "miles per gallon".
Now, if they wanted to calculate it in 'cents per mile', that's a measure we can all use.
Daniel
Hey Photon boy, Why not do that with a hybrid? Sell it every two years and buy a new one. The battery is actually warranted for more than that. That's complete, free replacement if the battrey fails during the warranty period.
I find the "MPG" figures are a bit misleading. It's really miles per gallon + miles per kilowatthour.
One would assume that if the car were charged daily and driven only on batteries (a few miles per day) it would get thousands of "miles per gallon".
Now, if they wanted to calculate it in 'cents per mile', that's a measure we can all use.
Daniel
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
gadget, you are right I need to add miles per kilowatthour. but main point is folks are taking available cars and essentially converting them to electric cars.
logic of having a gas option extends range of these vehicles with the option of plugging-in.
gadget, you are right I need to add miles per kilowatthour. but main point is folks are taking available cars and essentially converting them to electric cars.
logic of having a gas option extends range of these vehicles with the option of plugging-in.
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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gadget_lover said:I find the "MPG" figures are a bit misleading. It's really miles per gallon + miles per kilowatthour.
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Actually, I'd like to see it expressed in "miles per gallon of petroleum" ...or even imported petroleum.
I think importing 63% of our petroleum puts our country hugely at risk for national and economic security. So... anything that helps get us off of imported petroleum is a really good thing IMHO.
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gadget_lover said:I find the "MPG" figures are a bit misleading. It's really miles per gallon + miles per kilowatthour.
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Actually, I'd like to see it expressed in "miles per gallon of petroleum" ...or even imported petroleum.
I think importing 63% of our petroleum puts our country hugely at risk for national and economic security. So... anything that helps get us off of imported petroleum is a really good thing IMHO.
idleprocess
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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PhotonBoy said:
The rising price of gas may push many to go in this direction. Battery technology still has a way to go, though. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
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I don't think that the battery pack in a hybrid - plugin or otherwise - is going to run even $4000. The Prius has < 2KWh worth of capacity - enough to move the vehicle about a mile. If you built the pack yourself from off-the-shelf NiMH cells, then it might set you back that much, but the auto makers also have economy of scale that reduce the real costs of things.
Don't forget advances in battery technology that are in the pipeline - car-sized lithium-ion packs could almost double the watt-hour capability in the same space for less mass.
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PhotonBoy said:
The rising price of gas may push many to go in this direction. Battery technology still has a way to go, though. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
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I don't think that the battery pack in a hybrid - plugin or otherwise - is going to run even $4000. The Prius has < 2KWh worth of capacity - enough to move the vehicle about a mile. If you built the pack yourself from off-the-shelf NiMH cells, then it might set you back that much, but the auto makers also have economy of scale that reduce the real costs of things.
Don't forget advances in battery technology that are in the pipeline - car-sized lithium-ion packs could almost double the watt-hour capability in the same space for less mass.
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
Prius modded battery packs are getting aprox. 30 miles. not the range of GM's EV, but if your avg trips is under 30 miles.
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out having a gas option reduces the amount of batt reserves necessary to operate between plug-ins.
Prius modded battery packs are getting aprox. 30 miles. not the range of GM's EV, but if your avg trips is under 30 miles.
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out having a gas option reduces the amount of batt reserves necessary to operate between plug-ins.
James S
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
Hey, now this is getting cool. I like this idea better than any other combination of BEV/gas or whatever. I can charge for local driving and I can use gas for long distance driving and yet not be limited to the mile or so that the batteries in a regular hybrid can carry you alone.
And if you look at some of those pictures, their initial tests were not done with any fancy batteries but with inexpensive regular old lead acid ones. Later they switched to nice new LiIon batts, and that will up the price during these testing phases, but if you want to use big tubes of D cell NiMH I don't see that wouldn't work either.
We used to think of the car battery packs as being rather exotic and expensive. But that sure doesn't look like the case anymore...
Being a Modder at heart, if I can hack the car to have more battery runtime I think thats a project that I could get into /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif It's looking more and more that a hybrid is in my future /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hey, now this is getting cool. I like this idea better than any other combination of BEV/gas or whatever. I can charge for local driving and I can use gas for long distance driving and yet not be limited to the mile or so that the batteries in a regular hybrid can carry you alone.
And if you look at some of those pictures, their initial tests were not done with any fancy batteries but with inexpensive regular old lead acid ones. Later they switched to nice new LiIon batts, and that will up the price during these testing phases, but if you want to use big tubes of D cell NiMH I don't see that wouldn't work either.
We used to think of the car battery packs as being rather exotic and expensive. But that sure doesn't look like the case anymore...
Being a Modder at heart, if I can hack the car to have more battery runtime I think thats a project that I could get into /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif It's looking more and more that a hybrid is in my future /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
Getting back to that $8,000 battery;
The current generation of Toyota hybrids is using around 240 1.2 volt Nimh cells. They are packaged in 7.2 volt, 6.5ah modules. You can buy these from Panasonic.
To get an $8,000 battery, you'd have to be paying $33 per 1.2 volt cell. That's a little steep for cells that are packaged well, but of lower capacity than the current D Cells (9.0 Ah) that I can get retail for around $6 each.
Now keep in mind that I've paid Toyota $10.99 for a little black knob that turns the radio on and off, so I don't doubt that Toyota will be charging twice or more what it should. But, that will leave a lot of room for rebuilders to step in and provide recycled packs for much less. I suspect that If a rebuilder gets cells at wholesale and rebuilds battery packs, they will sell for about twice the cost of the parts, or $1000 with trade-in.
This is not much different from the current Transmission replacement scheme. Buy a new one for $2500 or a rebuilt one for $500 and trade in your old one.
Daniel
Getting back to that $8,000 battery;
The current generation of Toyota hybrids is using around 240 1.2 volt Nimh cells. They are packaged in 7.2 volt, 6.5ah modules. You can buy these from Panasonic.
To get an $8,000 battery, you'd have to be paying $33 per 1.2 volt cell. That's a little steep for cells that are packaged well, but of lower capacity than the current D Cells (9.0 Ah) that I can get retail for around $6 each.
Now keep in mind that I've paid Toyota $10.99 for a little black knob that turns the radio on and off, so I don't doubt that Toyota will be charging twice or more what it should. But, that will leave a lot of room for rebuilders to step in and provide recycled packs for much less. I suspect that If a rebuilder gets cells at wholesale and rebuilds battery packs, they will sell for about twice the cost of the parts, or $1000 with trade-in.
This is not much different from the current Transmission replacement scheme. Buy a new one for $2500 or a rebuilt one for $500 and trade in your old one.
Daniel
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
[ QUOTE ]
cy said:
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
[/ QUOTE ]
And... battery option takes away need for large ICE/gas tank/exhaust weight that you will always be lugging around.
I'll take the battery weight - especially if you want to add efficiency into the equation!
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cy said:
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
[/ QUOTE ]
And... battery option takes away need for large ICE/gas tank/exhaust weight that you will always be lugging around.
I'll take the battery weight - especially if you want to add efficiency into the equation!
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
As James has pointed out, a plug-in hybrid really is the best of all worlds. For those who really like filling up with gasoline - they can continue to do that, and only have to suffer along with a bit better gas mileage. For those willing to skip filling up at the gas station, and choose the more convenient, cleaner, cheaper and easier option of plugging the car in each night - the reward of significant clean, quiet ZEV range is at your fingertips. Need to drive beyond your battery range? Just don't stop, and the gas motor fires up when needed. Yes, it will cost more initially - but not nearly as much as adding the DVD option to your SUV.
Most people will find that their daily trips can be 100% battery, and that the ICE is only needed for the rare, longer trips. Using battery for all the cold-start, short trips will save significan pollution.
As James has pointed out, a plug-in hybrid really is the best of all worlds. For those who really like filling up with gasoline - they can continue to do that, and only have to suffer along with a bit better gas mileage. For those willing to skip filling up at the gas station, and choose the more convenient, cleaner, cheaper and easier option of plugging the car in each night - the reward of significant clean, quiet ZEV range is at your fingertips. Need to drive beyond your battery range? Just don't stop, and the gas motor fires up when needed. Yes, it will cost more initially - but not nearly as much as adding the DVD option to your SUV.
Most people will find that their daily trips can be 100% battery, and that the ICE is only needed for the rare, longer trips. Using battery for all the cold-start, short trips will save significan pollution.
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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PhotonBoy said:
Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
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I definitely don't understand. If you switch out of cars every two years anyway, why would you worry about battery replacement? You'd have to worry about battery replacement about as much as you'd have to worry about engine reaplacement.
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PhotonBoy said:
Personally, I don't like the idea of having to replace $4,000 to $8,000 worth of batteries every 6 to 8 years or so. (1) I'd sooner buy a cheap, small 2 year old gas powered car and sell it 2 years later, GOTO (1).
[/ QUOTE ]
I definitely don't understand. If you switch out of cars every two years anyway, why would you worry about battery replacement? You'd have to worry about battery replacement about as much as you'd have to worry about engine reaplacement.
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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Darell said:
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cy said:
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
[/ QUOTE ]
And... battery option takes away need for large ICE/gas tank/exhaust weight that you will always be lugging around.
I'll take the battery weight - especially if you want to add efficiency into the equation!
[/ QUOTE ]
ops, forgot about the option of an all electric car. opss again, they are not available anymore (from GM anyways) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif whereas hybrids are actually available..
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Darell said:
[ QUOTE ]
cy said:
weight/efficency for carrying around battery packs for 30 miles VS carrying around battery packs for 85 miles.
gas option takes away need for large battery reserves/weight you will be always lugging around.
[/ QUOTE ]
And... battery option takes away need for large ICE/gas tank/exhaust weight that you will always be lugging around.
I'll take the battery weight - especially if you want to add efficiency into the equation!
[/ QUOTE ]
ops, forgot about the option of an all electric car. opss again, they are not available anymore (from GM anyways) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif whereas hybrids are actually available..
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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cy said:
whereas hybrids are actually available..
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What *I* consider hybrids are not yet available. That was the point of this thread.... adding more batteries to today's "hybrids" and allowing us to plug in. So far, nobody has given the driving public enough credit to realize that plugging it in is a desirable option. I'll be shocked if Toyota misses this boad after cornering the market on the initial "hybrid" offerings.
If anybody is curious as to what I consider a hybrid (anybody? Anybody at all?) - it is a vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels - not ONLY gasoline as today's hybrids require. (yes, they get some benefit from electical assist, but ultimately ALL motive force comes from the gasoline that is pumped into the tank.)
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cy said:
whereas hybrids are actually available..
[/ QUOTE ]
What *I* consider hybrids are not yet available. That was the point of this thread.... adding more batteries to today's "hybrids" and allowing us to plug in. So far, nobody has given the driving public enough credit to realize that plugging it in is a desirable option. I'll be shocked if Toyota misses this boad after cornering the market on the initial "hybrid" offerings.
If anybody is curious as to what I consider a hybrid (anybody? Anybody at all?) - it is a vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels - not ONLY gasoline as today's hybrids require. (yes, they get some benefit from electical assist, but ultimately ALL motive force comes from the gasoline that is pumped into the tank.)
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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Frangible said:
Not everyone can afford a new car every 2 years, heh.
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Indeed. And that's why we should be using more battery. Will make the ICE last longer and need fewer tune-ups and oil changes. EV motors are good for at least a million miles, the batteries may eventually need replacement.
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Frangible said:
Not everyone can afford a new car every 2 years, heh.
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Indeed. And that's why we should be using more battery. Will make the ICE last longer and need fewer tune-ups and oil changes. EV motors are good for at least a million miles, the batteries may eventually need replacement.
Darell
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
OK, I didn't follow the link until now, because I'm intimately familiar with the various Prius Plus projects that are going on. I just briefly read the argument on the slash dot forum. Yikes. All about electricity vs gasoline again. It'll never end until everybody realizes that the oil industry is the biggest consumer of electricity of ANY industry in the country! So if electricity generation pollutes so horribly, then gasoline pollutes well before you even bother to burn it in the car... where of course it pollutes again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
As far as I can tell, a plug-in hybrid would be the ultimate vehicle for ANYBODY's use today. It is a compromise for sure, but a happy one in most respects. If you have decided that electricity is the enemy, then you can happily keep filling up with gasoline just like you do today, and ignore the electricity inlet. If you decide that you'd rather NOT feed as many rulers of hostile foreign countries, then you can choose to do most of your driving on electricity, and conveniently fill up at home with energy that is about 1/5th the cost of gas at $2/gallon. Heck, you can even GROW YOUR OWN energy if you go that route! Who doesn't win? I mean except for those hostile country rulers... and quite possibly the American auto industry that seems to be alseep at the stick.
OK, I didn't follow the link until now, because I'm intimately familiar with the various Prius Plus projects that are going on. I just briefly read the argument on the slash dot forum. Yikes. All about electricity vs gasoline again. It'll never end until everybody realizes that the oil industry is the biggest consumer of electricity of ANY industry in the country! So if electricity generation pollutes so horribly, then gasoline pollutes well before you even bother to burn it in the car... where of course it pollutes again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
As far as I can tell, a plug-in hybrid would be the ultimate vehicle for ANYBODY's use today. It is a compromise for sure, but a happy one in most respects. If you have decided that electricity is the enemy, then you can happily keep filling up with gasoline just like you do today, and ignore the electricity inlet. If you decide that you'd rather NOT feed as many rulers of hostile foreign countries, then you can choose to do most of your driving on electricity, and conveniently fill up at home with energy that is about 1/5th the cost of gas at $2/gallon. Heck, you can even GROW YOUR OWN energy if you go that route! Who doesn't win? I mean except for those hostile country rulers... and quite possibly the American auto industry that seems to be alseep at the stick.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
[ QUOTE ]
Darell said...
So far, nobody has given the driving public enough credit to realize that plugging it in is a desirable option. I'll be shocked if Toyota misses this boad after cornering the market on the initial "hybrid" offerings.
If anybody is curious as to what I consider a hybrid (anybody? Anybody at all?) - it is a vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels - not ONLY gasoline as today's hybrids require. (yes, they get some benefit from electical assist, but ultimately ALL motive force comes from the gasoline that is pumped into the tank.)
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I think that what you will discover is that it won't work as you desire. Given a car that plugs in AND runs efficiently on gasoline, many folks will simply forget to plug it in. I say that because the only penalty for forgetting is that the ICE lights up. In the case of the Prius, it does so seamlessly. An efficient car that gets 400 miles on 10 gallons of gas will only be filled every 3 to 4 weeks if you use it primarily around town. That's not offen enough to be a major deterent. The times you'll be reminded to plug it in is when you are filling the tank with gas.
As to the 'vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels' as a hybrid... Well , that's not the definition of a hybrid. There's already a label used for multi fuel cars. The ability to run on a choice of fuels is a nice thought but misses one major issue. A multi fuel car is not optimized for all of the fuels. You have to optimize it for emissions, power and economy as well as smoothness. That's not easy to do when you have fuels with wildly different characteristics.
So, is it better to have a car that produces X pollutants on CNG or is it better to have one that produces X*2 (X times 2) on gas and X*1.25 on CNG and X*2.2 on Diesel?
Daniel
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Darell said...
So far, nobody has given the driving public enough credit to realize that plugging it in is a desirable option. I'll be shocked if Toyota misses this boad after cornering the market on the initial "hybrid" offerings.
If anybody is curious as to what I consider a hybrid (anybody? Anybody at all?) - it is a vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels - not ONLY gasoline as today's hybrids require. (yes, they get some benefit from electical assist, but ultimately ALL motive force comes from the gasoline that is pumped into the tank.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that what you will discover is that it won't work as you desire. Given a car that plugs in AND runs efficiently on gasoline, many folks will simply forget to plug it in. I say that because the only penalty for forgetting is that the ICE lights up. In the case of the Prius, it does so seamlessly. An efficient car that gets 400 miles on 10 gallons of gas will only be filled every 3 to 4 weeks if you use it primarily around town. That's not offen enough to be a major deterent. The times you'll be reminded to plug it in is when you are filling the tank with gas.
As to the 'vehicle that can be powered by a choice of fuels' as a hybrid... Well , that's not the definition of a hybrid. There's already a label used for multi fuel cars. The ability to run on a choice of fuels is a nice thought but misses one major issue. A multi fuel car is not optimized for all of the fuels. You have to optimize it for emissions, power and economy as well as smoothness. That's not easy to do when you have fuels with wildly different characteristics.
So, is it better to have a car that produces X pollutants on CNG or is it better to have one that produces X*2 (X times 2) on gas and X*1.25 on CNG and X*2.2 on Diesel?
Daniel
Brock
Flashaholic
Re: Hybrids plug-in... Toyota Prius gets up to 180
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So, is it better to have a car that produces X pollutants on CNG or is it better to have one that produces X*2 (X times 2) on gas and X*1.25 on CNG and X*2.2 on Diesel?
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Well if they ever clean up diesel, but in the mean time I will burn bio-diesel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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So, is it better to have a car that produces X pollutants on CNG or is it better to have one that produces X*2 (X times 2) on gas and X*1.25 on CNG and X*2.2 on Diesel?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well if they ever clean up diesel, but in the mean time I will burn bio-diesel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
