High School Freedom of Speech...

I saw this in the news paper today and wanted to hear what people think. This town is in sothern minnesota. Would have posted a link to the article, but you need to regester (for free) to view it. Just wanted to save people time by posting the whole thing. Article is from the Star Tribune 4/21/05 (www.startribune.com) Sry, it is kinda long, but it is intresting.

Contents of news article converted to a link

I found an alternate non-subscriptin news story. Copyrights don't permit us to post entire articles. - Empath

High school kids dont need to show off their vaginas in school.

Come on now, you konw that is not what they are doing.

Are anti abortion pins or Jesus pins allowed?

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DarkLight said:
Are anti abortion pins or Jesus pins allowed?

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Abortion pins yes; Jesus pins no. (In my school anyway)



What those kids are doing is rediculous IMHO. I never would wear something that said "I (heart) your vagina" just out of spite (which I believe most of them are doing it for). And, if they're stupid enough to get expelled for it, than I guess they deserve it. They're losing in the long run, not the school.

I am really beginning to mourn the loss of civility in this country.I'm also outraged by the idiot parents of these kids.All of these kinds of in your face incidents seem to be traced back to frustrated liberals who hate traditional moral values.But in the long run-stupidity is it's own reward,just wait till these twits try to get a job! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Um, not to push the obvious, but the pins are referring to a play that's curently touring. And while the kids' motives may have not been theatrically inclined, the play has a few good things to say. It is not simply a play about sex. It's good not to confuse the issues.

That said, the word "vagina" is just a word, is not obsecene, and not sexual. There are a lot of other words that are used much more frequently that are waaaaayyy more offensive. Were the kids reasons for wearing the buttons appropriate? I don't know -- from the article you can't say that the kids are being anything more than social or political. However, that other kids are going to wear the t-shirts or buttons, and these kids could be expelled for it, is not right.

There should be a comprimise. It IS disruptive to wear the buttons in class, and that might be reason to keep them out of the classrooms, but elsewhere?

This is a free speech issue that is exactly why there's a first amendment. While I don't like that someone can wear a swastika, and it would not be appropriate in a classroom, they do have the right to wear one elsewhere. Same amendment let's me think or say they're a butthole.

I'm pretty conservative, but freedom of speech is just that. Just as long as it isn't disrupting the class.

If i remember correctly, the surpreme court ruled back in the early 90s stating that freedom of speech or press was no applicable to schools / minors. (PLEASE DONT BASH ME IF I AM WRONG!)

Edit - The more I think about it was freedom of press

not a free speech issue, it's a dress code issue.

even back when I was in high school in the late 80's we had rules about what slogans or text could appear on t-shirts or other clothing and among other things they specifically mentioned anatomical references.

While there is nothing specifically offensive about those shirts or buttons, I can totally see why the school would find them unacceptable and frankly i don't have a problem with them saying not to wear them.

But then I also don't see why the students wish to push so hard, but then I've never understood why some things become issues to young people and other things don't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm sure they could find some actual abuses of power at their school to protest. it's important for young people to be in conflict with authority /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Even over things that aren't that important.

You want to show your support for battered women or for women's rights, there are other organizations that do this that have T-Shirts and slogans that would be acceptable for wearing in school. I know cause I've played concerts for fundraising for local groups and I have some of the T-Shirts!

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chmsam said:
Um, not to push the obvious, but the pins are referring to a play that's curently touring. And while the kids' motives may have not been theatrically inclined, the play has a few good things to say. It is not simply a play about sex. It's good not to confuse the issues.

That said, the word "vagina" is just a word, is not obsecene, and not sexual. There are a lot of other words that are used much more frequently that are waaaaayyy more offensive. Were the kids reasons for wearing the buttons appropriate? I don't know -- from the article you can't say that the kids are being anything more than social or political. However, that other kids are going to wear the t-shirts or buttons, and these kids could be expelled for it, is not right.

There should be a comprimise. It IS disruptive to wear the buttons in class, and that might be reason to keep them out of the classrooms, but elsewhere?

This is a free speech issue that is exactly why there's a first amendment. While I don't like that someone can wear a swastika, and it would not be appropriate in a classroom, they do have the right to wear one elsewhere. Same amendment let's me think or say they're a butthole.

I'm pretty conservative, but freedom of speech is just that. Just as long as it isn't disrupting the class.

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To a 14 to 17 year old the word vagina is overtly sexual.

Who are you kidding?

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MaxaBaker said:
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DarkLight said:
Are anti abortion pins or Jesus pins allowed?

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Abortion pins yes; Jesus pins no. (In my school anyway)



What those kids are doing is rediculous IMHO. I never would wear something that said "I (heart) your vagina" just out of spite (which I believe most of them are doing it for). And, if they're stupid enough to get expelled for it, than I guess they deserve it. They're losing in the long run, not the school.

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So there you have it NO FREE SPEECH.

btw I bet if you wore a tshirt showing an aborted fetus you would be suspended...

Good post chmsam. If the kids like the shirts, then they can freely wear them outside of school. I agree with what James S said as well: The school still has the right to enforce a dress code. It's up to the school to choose what they would like to enforce and in this particular case they found that the shirts would promote an atmosphere that they don't want. What's the big deal?

That's funny. If I recall, the ACLU was conspicuously absent from this case:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1227844/posts

(In a highschool kid's yearbook photo, he had his shotgun - not loaded, not aimed, tastefully posed with the breech open over his leg, and it was banned by the school for yearbook publication.)

Or how about this story:
http://www.katu.com/stories/76079.html

(A girl brings in a photo of her brother in Iraq, holding a gun, to show in a class project about graduates' jobs. The teacher won't let her display it. Was the ACLU there? Does the fact that the school's mascot is a swordsman denote delicious irony?)

So a kid with a skeet shooting hobby, according to the ACLU, is not worth rallying around - but a vagina pin wearer is. OK. My question to parents is this -- what worries you more regarding your highschool-aged kids and the types of problems they're most likely to encounter: shotguns or vaginas?

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MrTwoTone said:
I am really beginning to mourn the loss of civility in this country.I'm also outraged by the idiot parents of these kids.

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I agree. Sadly, it is not only this country's civility that's going downhill...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif This trend toward more and more wacko "liberalism" (spelled COMMUNISM) in school is straight out of the Communist Manefesto and the goals of the Communist Party.

If this isn't bad enough . . . . . we're paying for it . . . and paying . . . and paying . . . with our properity taxes that are extorted out of us to support the latest WACKO ideas and trends in school.

Now the schools are the new "Drug Pushers" giving Ritalin and other drugs to students . . . . and they say we have a drug problem ??

One step to fixing this problem is to get the burden of schools off the property owner . . . . why should anyone of us have to pay for someone elses kids being indoctrinated by a liberal propaganda machine . . . for EVER!!!

What ever happened to "Reading, Writing and Arithmetic"??

The only "Free Speech" that counts anymore is only something that is Anti-morals, Anti-hard work, Anti-responsibility, Anti-Family (not Hilary's Idea of one), Anti-courtsey, Anti-anything that's good!

If these parents of these children want "Free Speech" then I'm not going to pay for it. If parents want to breed and impose their spawn upon the world, then they should pay for them . . . . everyone one of them. Send 4 kids to school . . . pay for 4 kids.

Me . . . I think I've paid my "Fair Share" . . . .

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

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DarkLight said:
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MaxaBaker said:
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DarkLight said:
Are anti abortion pins or Jesus pins allowed?

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Abortion pins yes; Jesus pins no. (In my school anyway)



What those kids are doing is rediculous IMHO. I never would wear something that said "I (heart) your vagina" just out of spite (which I believe most of them are doing it for). And, if they're stupid enough to get expelled for it, than I guess they deserve it. They're losing in the long run, not the school.

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So there you have it NO FREE SPEECH.

btw I bet if you wore a tshirt showing an aborted fetus you would be suspended...

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I wouldn't be suspended for it. There have been people wearing much worse things into my school before. They were told to change into something different (phys ed apperal) if they had it or their parents would be called and they would leave school.

I'm with you on this one though. The rules aren't strict enough IMO. When a person is caught weaing a t-shirt with the picture of a dead fetus for example, I DO think they should be suspended. That is going further than their right of "freedom of speech".

The question is then, where do you draw the line. At what point has the school gone too far. It seems that anything can be inappropriate if the school puts their spin on it. Soon, blue jeans will be bad because gang members wear them. I am just confused where this line can/should be drawn. I personally think they should be allowed to wear the buttons. I will talk with my friend who goes to school there and see what she did.

I'm definitely not a lawyer but again IIRC, outside the classroom, where there should be no disrpution of classes, slogans that are not obscene or inciting objectionable behavior are probably covered by free speech.

Do I aggree or feel stuff like in this article is appropriate? No, really. Do I think I'd let my kid go to school with buttons or t-shirts that would be obscene or inciting? No way. And believe it or not, not every teenager has hormones that are out of control. Most of the ones I know are actually very good kids and think pretty clearly. They're surprisingly polite and courteous, too.

Everyday I see t-shirts, buttons, and bumper stickers that not only do I disagree with, but often find offensive. Free speech protects those, too. Most of those things don't do a whole lot more than make the person look pretty ignorant and rude. But they have the right to do that, too.

This country is founded on the principle that we have free speech and free press unless it comes under libel/slander, incitement, or obscenity. And when someone starts to push towards limiting what someone can say or write, we'd all better pay attention.

Not that I agree with them wearing them to school at all. Polite or not, whether I agree with it or not, as long as it isn't disruptive, they probably do have the right.

schools aren't exactly the front-lines of freedom of speech (or freedom of anything, truthfully). i think if a buncha kids wanna act up and make asses of themselves, g'head and let 'em.
of course there are things that are just plain morally ignorant or offensive, but something as dumb as "i <3 my vagina" and "i support your vagina" shouldn't be birthing any articles. the only article-worthy piece of this puzzle is the students being threatened with expulsion from the school. how ridiculous is thee? i cannot count the ways.
then again, i dropped outta highschool my freshman year. if i had to write an article about the reasons then absurd rules would probly get a paragraph or two. y'know you couldn't drink anything in the entire highschool except in the cafeteria? not even a bottle of water in the hallway? the school has 20+ camera's in or around it? i was once "detained" by a teacher while visiting an ex-girlfriend 'cause she claimed that she suspected me as a possible terrorist? well pardon my tan.
the principal whom i was fairly close to my freshman year actually had to come and save my *** from getting into further trouble.
course i'm a huge rebellious nerd who thinks 90% of public schools are a crock-o anyway.

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The question is then, where do you draw the line

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The problem is that then do you want to legislate the line? These sorts of things really should be up to the local school administrations to do. When they get out of line the parents will react and have a chat with their local school boards, or even run for the school board to get rid of people who are out of control. It doesn't stop the initial action of stupidness on the administrations part, but if those people are out of hand, they will loose their jobs.

I'd much rather have situations where schools in southern california have a wear your vagina T-Shirt and schools in ohio ban them than try to nationalize dress code issues.