I am not asking this to "Old" people in particular, but people who have seen the changes and developments in the history of portable lighting, specifically, LED technology. I myself have lived long enough to know that new computer computer technology can get outdated in just a few years. I remember my brother getting a new Compaq PC Pentium 3 a few years ago, and only a year or two later Pentium 3 was basically, "crap" since it was completely stomped out by the new Pentium 4. So, did LEDs get outdated this fast? I remember reading somewhere that when the high dome emitter was released, someone said something like, "These lambertian emitters are so much more useful, we can start giving out those batwing emitters for free".
Does lighting technology outdate as fast as CPUs?
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PhotonWrangler
Flashaholic
I don't think that LEDs are advancing as fast as computers are just yet. Considering that I saw my first red LED in the mid 70s, the pace of their progress has really only started to pick up in the last decade. Now that manufacturers are starting to realize the opportunities for the general lighting market (as opposed to indicator lights), we're starting to see faster progress. Don't think they'll outpace computers though.
MaxaBaker
Flashlight Enthusiast
Well, I'm not as chronologically inhanced (thanks to whoever came up with that way of putting "Old", I use it all the time) as the people you're aiming for to answer, but I guess I can go ahead and state the obvious. Incandescent bulb technology has been around for well over a hundred years and hasn't advanced that much for how long a time it's been in existance. It's still basically the same thing as it's always been; they've just tweaked it over the years slightly.
As for LED, I completely agree with PW.
ANd for HID, well I think that is being outdated pretty fast, but not as fast as computers. 5 years ago there were no HID portable flashlights at all. Now, there are A LOT of them. Skilled people can even modify them with out to much trouble now. The most advancements happened within a 5-10 year period. It's just amazing I think. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
As for LED, I completely agree with PW.
ANd for HID, well I think that is being outdated pretty fast, but not as fast as computers. 5 years ago there were no HID portable flashlights at all. Now, there are A LOT of them. Skilled people can even modify them with out to much trouble now. The most advancements happened within a 5-10 year period. It's just amazing I think. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
KevinL
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Does lighting technology outdate as fast as CP
Thank god lights don't become obsolete, or lose value as fast as computers. Been at a keyboard for 15+ years. Thrown away more hardware than I can remember. I look at pictures of computers that I've owned and the best part: I don't even remember I owned them.
Also, lighting requirements remain constant. Maybe tomorrow all our Luxeon 1s are going to be obsolete by some new whiz bang LED. However, they'll still provide enough light for you to accomplish the same tasks you could do with them when you first bought them. Software on the other hand expands to devour whatever computing capacity is available.
In 1987 we had the Surefire 6P (not that I knew of it - the dates are from SF's 2002 catalog), and we had the IBM PC XT, AT, and bleeding edge in those days, the blindingly fast 386, which was actually a 32-bit computer too!
Fast forward to 2005..
We still have our SF 6P with the classic P60 lamp. Minor upgrades, like a slightly different machining style, Pyrex glass, that's it. I bet the Surefire 6C in B/S/T still shines like the day it was new. It's now worth $300. You can't even GIVE AWAY a 386 and you'd be lucky if you weren't charged a fee to dispose of it.
So no, lights are definitely unlike computers and I must say thank god for that. Lights will still hold their value. I just paid $100+ for an E1e-SG with KL1-SG (Lux1 low dome) and I'm not the only one.. someone was right there behind me waiting for it if I didn't decide that it was now or never /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Thank god lights don't become obsolete, or lose value as fast as computers. Been at a keyboard for 15+ years. Thrown away more hardware than I can remember. I look at pictures of computers that I've owned and the best part: I don't even remember I owned them.
Also, lighting requirements remain constant. Maybe tomorrow all our Luxeon 1s are going to be obsolete by some new whiz bang LED. However, they'll still provide enough light for you to accomplish the same tasks you could do with them when you first bought them. Software on the other hand expands to devour whatever computing capacity is available.
In 1987 we had the Surefire 6P (not that I knew of it - the dates are from SF's 2002 catalog), and we had the IBM PC XT, AT, and bleeding edge in those days, the blindingly fast 386, which was actually a 32-bit computer too!
Fast forward to 2005..
We still have our SF 6P with the classic P60 lamp. Minor upgrades, like a slightly different machining style, Pyrex glass, that's it. I bet the Surefire 6C in B/S/T still shines like the day it was new. It's now worth $300. You can't even GIVE AWAY a 386 and you'd be lucky if you weren't charged a fee to dispose of it.
So no, lights are definitely unlike computers and I must say thank god for that. Lights will still hold their value. I just paid $100+ for an E1e-SG with KL1-SG (Lux1 low dome) and I'm not the only one.. someone was right there behind me waiting for it if I didn't decide that it was now or never /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
ViReN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Does lighting technology outdate as fast as CP
I humbly choose to disagree with the views that lights will not be like computing power. i mean no offence to any one. here are my views on this topic.
1) 2001-2002, There was Luxeon I @ 350 mA ... @ $30 - $40 Range , 15 - 25 Lumens
2) 2003-2004, There was Luxeon III @ 700 mA ... @ $30 - $40 Range, 42 - 80 Lumens
3) 2005-2006, There IS Luxeon IV @ 1.4 A ... @ $30 - $40 Range, 80 - 190 Lumens
True, Current Ratings have Gone up, Lumens have gone up more than current... price remaining same (for the introduction)
this is not all...
Lumiled's now is not just the manufacturer... there are more and more coming up.. with brighter and cheaper power LED's ...
NewBie... keeps an eye on all this.. and keeps informing the forum...
Oh .. by the way Power LED's are mostly not in Flashlights... but in Mobiles
Mobiles compose 65% of total Power LED's Market Share
Automobiles about 15%
Accent lighting about 7% (not very sure)
where as Flashlights is just 5% ... Go Figure!
(i got above info from a link posted in this forum itself)
This is in Perfect Analogy with the evolution of Transistor --> to --> Integrated Circuit ... and so is to the computing power...
There sure will be a saturation point (like the Incand. Light) where not much can be improved... apart from better thermal management, efficiency etc...
again untill sometime we come up with something like a mini HID ... for a photon size... or....
sshhhhh.. this is secret .... VVUHF Magnetic Feild Resonance Effect that can emitt light without being hot! ... the Light beam Focusing based on on the portion where light being emitted on the emitter rod (again controlled magnetically(in turn electronically))... instead of moving light source/reflector (controled by twisting the business end) ... like the M*G Light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ....
I humbly choose to disagree with the views that lights will not be like computing power. i mean no offence to any one. here are my views on this topic.
1) 2001-2002, There was Luxeon I @ 350 mA ... @ $30 - $40 Range , 15 - 25 Lumens
2) 2003-2004, There was Luxeon III @ 700 mA ... @ $30 - $40 Range, 42 - 80 Lumens
3) 2005-2006, There IS Luxeon IV @ 1.4 A ... @ $30 - $40 Range, 80 - 190 Lumens
True, Current Ratings have Gone up, Lumens have gone up more than current... price remaining same (for the introduction)
this is not all...
Lumiled's now is not just the manufacturer... there are more and more coming up.. with brighter and cheaper power LED's ...
NewBie... keeps an eye on all this.. and keeps informing the forum...
Oh .. by the way Power LED's are mostly not in Flashlights... but in Mobiles
Mobiles compose 65% of total Power LED's Market Share
Automobiles about 15%
Accent lighting about 7% (not very sure)
where as Flashlights is just 5% ... Go Figure!
(i got above info from a link posted in this forum itself)
This is in Perfect Analogy with the evolution of Transistor --> to --> Integrated Circuit ... and so is to the computing power...
There sure will be a saturation point (like the Incand. Light) where not much can be improved... apart from better thermal management, efficiency etc...
again untill sometime we come up with something like a mini HID ... for a photon size... or....
sshhhhh.. this is secret .... VVUHF Magnetic Feild Resonance Effect that can emitt light without being hot! ... the Light beam Focusing based on on the portion where light being emitted on the emitter rod (again controlled magnetically(in turn electronically))... instead of moving light source/reflector (controled by twisting the business end) ... like the M*G Light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ....
BentHeadTX
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Does lighting technology outdate as fast as CP
I look at the luxeons as far as bin codes at 350mA.
2001 P bin
2002 Q bin
2003 R bin
2004 R bin
First 6 months 2005 R bin
Granted, Luxeon has pushed the currents up to get more lumens but their technology has stalled since 2003 in effeciency. The top LuxeonV was X in 2003 and stayed at that level.
I would say that Luxeon has been working on pulling the heat away from the emitter and the evaporative phospher coating. From the rumors floating around, maybe they will jump the effeciency up in the latter part of 2005.
Nichia Jupiter and Seoul Semiconductor have high-flux LEDs rolling out in the next month or two. Rumored to be 60-70 lumens per watt and ramping to 100 lumens per watt. That is what I call a true jump in output and bodes well for single AAA/AA powered lights (LRI Photon 60 lumen AA in particular)
I love my nFlex WX1S Luxeon V running at 4.27 watts, the ~170 lumens it puts out is fantasic! 40 lumens per watt is nice but hopefully by 2007, I can throw another LED in there that uses less power and more output. 300 lumen Luxeon IV? 350 lumen Nichia Jupiter at 3 watts? 250 lumen Seoul Semiconductor LED at 2.5 watts?
For now, I am looking forward to the LRI Photon 60 lumen single AA light for an EDC.
I look at the luxeons as far as bin codes at 350mA.
2001 P bin
2002 Q bin
2003 R bin
2004 R bin
First 6 months 2005 R bin
Granted, Luxeon has pushed the currents up to get more lumens but their technology has stalled since 2003 in effeciency. The top LuxeonV was X in 2003 and stayed at that level.
I would say that Luxeon has been working on pulling the heat away from the emitter and the evaporative phospher coating. From the rumors floating around, maybe they will jump the effeciency up in the latter part of 2005.
Nichia Jupiter and Seoul Semiconductor have high-flux LEDs rolling out in the next month or two. Rumored to be 60-70 lumens per watt and ramping to 100 lumens per watt. That is what I call a true jump in output and bodes well for single AAA/AA powered lights (LRI Photon 60 lumen AA in particular)
I love my nFlex WX1S Luxeon V running at 4.27 watts, the ~170 lumens it puts out is fantasic! 40 lumens per watt is nice but hopefully by 2007, I can throw another LED in there that uses less power and more output. 300 lumen Luxeon IV? 350 lumen Nichia Jupiter at 3 watts? 250 lumen Seoul Semiconductor LED at 2.5 watts?
For now, I am looking forward to the LRI Photon 60 lumen single AA light for an EDC.
NewBie
*Retired*
[ QUOTE ]
PhotonWrangler said:
I don't think that LEDs are advancing as fast as computers are just yet. Considering that I saw my first red LED in the mid 70s, the pace of their progress has really only started to pick up in the last decade. Now that manufacturers are starting to realize the opportunities for the general lighting market (as opposed to indicator lights), we're starting to see faster progress. Don't think they'll outpace computers though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but...
In 1999, you'd be hard pressed to find a white LED over 0.08 W, and the efficiency was poor.
Now six years later, we see 5W LEDs all over the place. 5W/0.08W = 62.5 gain.
1999, we had the 450 MHz PII
450 MHz * 65.5 = 28,125 MHz, or 28.125 GHz
Yeah, CPUs are lagging bigtime.
(you can spare me the lecture on bus widths, memory speed, etc...I know)
PhotonWrangler said:
I don't think that LEDs are advancing as fast as computers are just yet. Considering that I saw my first red LED in the mid 70s, the pace of their progress has really only started to pick up in the last decade. Now that manufacturers are starting to realize the opportunities for the general lighting market (as opposed to indicator lights), we're starting to see faster progress. Don't think they'll outpace computers though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but...
In 1999, you'd be hard pressed to find a white LED over 0.08 W, and the efficiency was poor.
Now six years later, we see 5W LEDs all over the place. 5W/0.08W = 62.5 gain.
1999, we had the 450 MHz PII
450 MHz * 65.5 = 28,125 MHz, or 28.125 GHz
Yeah, CPUs are lagging bigtime.
(you can spare me the lecture on bus widths, memory speed, etc...I know)
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Re: Does lighting technology outdate as fast as CP
The question was "are the obsolete" as fast as computers.
It depends on houw you view things. One of the dictionary definitions says obsolete is "no longer in use". A second definition says that it compares unfavorably with the newest models.
My computer is 4 years old, the keyboard is 9 years old, the screen is 1 year old. It does everything today that it did 4 years ago, so it's very, very useful. It is, however, not as fast as a brand new one that's 4 times as fast.
Now for lights. My 5 year old Mag Solitaire with a white 3mm LED is obsolete. It still works just like it did 5 years ago, and was barely adequate at the time. New tech makes AAA sized lights that are much, much brighter and much more useful.
Then you have a different category. My ARC LSH-P with two stage Kroll was perfect for me two years ago. It had just enough light, the run-time and form factor were exactly what I needed. For it's purpose, adding more light levels or more light output would not have enhanced it. It's not obsolete even though I can buy a similar light from HDS that's 2 times the output and multiple output stages. The HDS, for my purposes only, is not an improvement.
BTW, I'm typing this message on a 4 year old laptop using windows 98. If you go to www.tanj.com you will hit a web server that's 5 or 6 years old and an OS that's at laest 2 years old. Heck, everything I have is outdated.
Just don't tell my wife. I understand the current model of husbands also work better than us 50 year old versions. I guess I'm outdated too.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Daniel (still kicking)
The question was "are the obsolete" as fast as computers.
It depends on houw you view things. One of the dictionary definitions says obsolete is "no longer in use". A second definition says that it compares unfavorably with the newest models.
My computer is 4 years old, the keyboard is 9 years old, the screen is 1 year old. It does everything today that it did 4 years ago, so it's very, very useful. It is, however, not as fast as a brand new one that's 4 times as fast.
Now for lights. My 5 year old Mag Solitaire with a white 3mm LED is obsolete. It still works just like it did 5 years ago, and was barely adequate at the time. New tech makes AAA sized lights that are much, much brighter and much more useful.
Then you have a different category. My ARC LSH-P with two stage Kroll was perfect for me two years ago. It had just enough light, the run-time and form factor were exactly what I needed. For it's purpose, adding more light levels or more light output would not have enhanced it. It's not obsolete even though I can buy a similar light from HDS that's 2 times the output and multiple output stages. The HDS, for my purposes only, is not an improvement.
BTW, I'm typing this message on a 4 year old laptop using windows 98. If you go to www.tanj.com you will hit a web server that's 5 or 6 years old and an OS that's at laest 2 years old. Heck, everything I have is outdated.
Just don't tell my wife. I understand the current model of husbands also work better than us 50 year old versions. I guess I'm outdated too.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Daniel (still kicking)
