Maybe this is what is eBay is worried about

comozo

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An excerpt from alt.lasers
Titled: Maybe this is what is eBay is worried about

> DELTA PILOT HURT BY LASER
> A second Delta Air Lines pilot has suffered eye injuries resulting
> from a laser being pointed at his aircraft. The unidentified first...

Sam's answer:
Interesting. Let's do some simple math..... To hit the plane at 9,000...

link

Unlike the news, Sam's reply gives a non-sensationalized answer.
 

James S

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the math is not complicated, and some folks have actually done the test physically by pointing a laser of a known power at each other from those distances.

We're all agreed I think that the danger of burned retinas for any legal laser product at those distances is non-existant. I'm not sure that hitting the plane is such a hard thing since you can see the beam quite clearly when standing under it. And it would be like shining a bright green light into the cockpit if you managed to hit it, which is bad for their night vision and might "startle" the pilots. Which would certainly be dangerous. I have no trouble with lighting up a plane being illegal. It definitely should be. But there is something here that we're not getting the full picture of. How are these people claiming actual physical damage after the fact. Either that or there are some people out there with some much higher powered lasers and some much more interesting tracking equipment, or I'm not understanding this at all.
 

Raccoon

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Even a 500mW laser would be reduced to negligible levels of light at those distances. It would be a startling and even painful experience to have your night vision suddenly disrupted by coherent green light, yes. But no lasting effects beyond some minor stress and after images.

I will take these reports seriously IF and only IF pilots are being discharged of duty due to retnal damage. If you don't have 20/20 vision, you cannot fly.
 

Raccoon

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As I posted on alt.lasers:<ul type="square">Sam, could you recalculate for these figures?

9000 ft. up (2743.2 meters)
and 6 miles out (9656.064 meters)

using this formula, you can determine the ACTUAL distance of the plane.
"a² + b² = c²"

2743.2^2 + 9656.064^2 = 10038.16^2

That means the plane was actually 10038.16 meters away, which is 32,933.6 feet or 6 1/4 miles!

Please tell me you can't burn people at 6 1/4 miles away, even with a half-watt laser...

-- eric[/list]How does that work now. 1.2 mRad is 1.2 meters radius for every kilometer distance? So at 10 km, the radius would be 12 meters from the center, or 24 meters in diameter?!

With a fully dialated pupil at 5 mm, how much light from 5 mW spread out over 24,000 mm will enter the eye? Since both measurements are diameters of a circle, I assume 5/24000*5 is the correct answer, or 0.001 mW. That is but 1/5000th of the regulated safety limit.

Lets assume the laser was an expensive Class 4 rated at 500mW. 5/24000*500 is 0.1 mW. You can stare happily into 0.1 mW of green light according to the FDA, as it is only 1/50th the regulated limit.
 

bootleg2go

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The area of a circle is pi*R^2 so pi*12000^2=452389342 square mm of area. The area of say a fairly dilated/night adapted eye would be perhaps 6mm. so pi*3^2=28.27mm.
452389342/28.27= 16,002,452 if you divide 1 by 16,002452 you get 6.249 e-8 if you take this number and multiply it by the laser output power, that is how many mw is hitting the eye. in the case of a 1 watt laser 6.249 e-8 watts, so the power level hitting an eye at this distance is around 62 nano-watts.

Jack
 

Raccoon

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While those numbers are significantly smaller than the results I came up with, I don't feel fully confident in how you obtained them.

Could you go with a 5mm iris, and compare your results to mine, showing where I miscalculated?
 

trident

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There's a nonlinear relationship between the ratio of circle diameters, versus the ratio of the areas of those circles...
you're assuming (5/24000) = ( (pi*5)^2 / (pi*24000)^2 )
but that's not correct - when you double the radius of a circle, its area doesn't double.. the area can in fact grow by several orders of magnitude
 

bootleg2go

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Yea Trident is mostly right, but it's the radius not the diameter and it ir the radius that is squared not the product of pi and the radius. So in your example of a 5mm iris, the area would be pi*r^2 or 3.1415*(2.5^2)or 19.63 sq milimeters. With the beam diamter of 24000mm it would be 3.1415*(12000^2)or 452,389,342 sq milimeters of area in a 24 meter circle. The ratio of 5 to 24000 is a factor of 4800 while the ratio of 19.43 to 452,389,342 is a factor of 23,045,814 quite a difference...The ^2 in the formula makes it quite exponential.

Jack
 

Raccoon

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So you're saying at 6 1/4 miles, a green laser could hardly develop photographic film let alone burn a hole in anyone's eye?
 

bootleg2go

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Depending on the speed of the film and length of exposure that's probably right.

Jack
 

PocketBeam

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And this doesn't take into affect atmospheric haze or the difficulty in holding the beam on the eye without using a tracking tripod.

Hm, who would think the news would make something big of something small or non-existant? Buyer beware, I don't buy it.
 

Ken_Allen

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Haha, The chances of someone shining a laser in a window that is really truley on the top part of the plane, and it would be so small to see, and aim from that distance...truley near impossible.
 

LaserMod

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Some interesting calculations here.

A beam that size will make it easier to hit a target (larger with divergences of 1.5 appearing) although some planes reported that they were 'tracked' by the beam. Whilst I doubt no-one can easily obtain or has such equipment. I think it is reasonable to assume because of the beam size at that height it may appear as if the beam is tracking because the aircraft is somewhere within a very large beam area. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
 

AJ_Dual

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That's a good point, the wider beam at that distance creates a larger footprint within which a target can be held.

The biggest cause I can see for the "superhuman" accuracy that the idiots pointing at aircraft can achieve is like the difference between rifles and pistols. If you take combustion efficiency and velocity out of the argument, from a mechanical rest, with barrels of the same quality, and consistent ammunition, a barrel that is 6" long will be just as accurate as one that is 36" long. However, when placed in the hands of a real user, the rifle is more accurate than a pistol at a given distance every time for two reasons, the much longer sightline between the front and rear sights, and that you can achieve a three point brace between both hands and the shoulder because a rifle has a stock.

With a green laser, the sightline can be miles long, and unlike a bullet where you have one instant to choose in which to release it, the "user" (i.e. plane dotting idiot) has comparably infinite time to adjust as he can just keep watching the beam.

You can also greatly increase how steady a hold you have on the pointer by using three muscle groups in opposition, just like a riflle's two-handed hold against a shoulder stock, is steadier than a one or two handed hold with a pistol. You can experiment with this for yourself inside your home by watching the dot as you use different holds. Try it one handed, then two handed, then with two hands making a double fist holding the pointer and your fists against the side of your jaw using your neck muscles to help hold your hands steady. Each time gets you a net increase in stability of the dot on whatever you're pointing at.

So I don't think it's at all extrordinary that people are hitting the aircraft they're aiming at, or that air crews are seeing the beams. I just think that the brightness levels reported are inflated hyperbole, as they go through each re-telling, from pilot to FAA to the press. No real conspiracy there, just human nature
 
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