Prius Plus

Bright Scouter

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Anyone heard much about the Prius Plus experiments lately? I am really interested in this if they can get something to market that is at least reasonably priced with a decent distance. Not sure it will happen soon, but thought I could ask what people have heard.
 

gadget_lover

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There's the Prius Plus web site, but I don't have it bookmarked on my computer. Google shows it's at http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html. I would wonder if the current experiments might be premature, since Toshiba has promised a LiIon battery with microtexture electrodes for electric cars. The new Toshiba battery will allow extremely fast charging and an extremely long battery life.

The reason this makes a difference is that the regen braking can be much more efficient, and the charging from the grid can be much quicker. This may change the design, since better regen means less grid charging is needed and (possibly) less battery.

The faster charging may be enough to reduce the need for an onboard charging system.

On the other hand, the current crop of hybrids have been established as usable, reliable and efficient cars. As such, a generation of plug in hybrids may provide a nice transition to widespread acceptance of BEVs.

Daniel
 

cobb

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Page not found. Are we referring to making a prius plug in car?
 

paulr

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The earlier url didn't work because the period at the end was included in the link. Just remove the trailing period and it will work. Nice site.
 

cobb

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Thanks. I understand toyota is very upset at folks making their wireless car wired. IT seemed they wanted to get the point across you never had to plug it in. I frankly do not recall much fuss about plugging in electric cars when they were big a few years ago, just their small size and limited range. Since I live in an apartment I can see where plugging it in for me would be difficult. I would have to run a cord out the window and run it along the sidewalk outside my apartment and hope to park in front of my unit.
 

bindibadgi

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Of course the beauty of the Prius Plus is that if you don't want to plug it in, you don't have to! It should run just like the stock Prius anyway if ever you are in a situation where you can't plug it. But when you can, it's even better.

I don't really get why they would be upset. Unless it's some conspiracy ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif
 

gadget_lover

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They have a valid reason to be upset. The number one question I get when driving my Prius has to do with the perception that you have to charge it. Toyota has gone to great lengths to create a car with many of the advantages of an electric without the drawbacks. Needing to plug teh car in is a perceived drawback.

If you think about it, the perceived problems with electrics come back to plugging them in. You can only charge them so fast, and they only hold a certain amount of energy. You can only go so far, then need to plug them in again. If you forget to plug it in, your electric may not be up to the required tasks.

Selling the hybrid is dependent on the perception that the car is the best sollution available. If a different implementation is shown to be even slightly better it may hurt sales. Confusing people with the need to plug it in will also hurt sales. I can see why Toyota might be upset.

Daniel
 

jtr1962

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[ QUOTE ]
gadget_lover said:
Needing to plug teh car in is a perceived drawback.


[/ QUOTE ]
The operative word here is "perceived". With today's batteries offering 80% recharge in 15 minutes, and future batteries promising to do it in 5 or less, plugging a vehicle in is no worse than refueling. If enough people bought EVs, gas stations would have recharging stations for those who have no place to plug in. Somebody (probably the government) really needs to get rid of all the myths surrounding EVs and then just let the public make up its own mind. Of course, the oil companies and the auto makers don't want to because EVs don't use oil at all and don't use as many repair parts as ICEs.

I don't see how marketing a car that doesn't have to be plugged in but can be if you never want to use gas is disadvantageous. I'm really surprised Toyota didn't offer such options as a larger battery and a recharger, or even an option to leave out the ICE altogether. With proper marketing, it would only help sales. The public still thinks of EVs in much the same way as they think of still think of steam trains when someone mentions railroads. Technology moves on, yet the public is seemingly never made aware of these advancements when vested interests stand to lose.
 

mattheww50

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Actually an electric vehicle that can be recharged in 5-10 minutes is quite a ways off, and it is not likely to be looked upon with great favor either. Do the arithmetic and you will understand the problem. A battery pack capable of driving a 2000 pound vehicle 100 miles has a capacity on the order of 20 kilowatt hours. So if you want to charge such a battery in 5 minutes, you need to delivery energy to it at the rate of 240 Kilowatts. ONly a tiny amount of that has to be converted to heat before you have a sizeable fire hazard!

Even a large house today only has about 25Kw service (100 amps on each phase). 240 Kilowatts will also involve a hefty demand charge, and to put it very politely, it is a huge energy hazard, and while magnetic coupling is possible, we are talking about fields like you have around an MRI scanner.

I can assure you the power industry will not be enthusiastic about customers being able to turn on a switch and draw 200+kw on demand. If you think the grid is overstressed now, think about what having a few thousand vehicles all throw the switch at once could do...
 

jtr1962

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Actually, the only time you'll need the 5 minute recharge is at a commercial recharge station that is equipped to deal with the power demands (and hazards). If you're charging at home, chances are it's because the vehicle is parked for the night, and that means the usual slow charge. Believe me, I'm not suggesting that we have homes wired for 200+ kW. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif The only point I really see for quick recharges is if you can't recharge at home, or if you're taking a trip longer than the range of your vehicle and are stopped at a recharging station for a "fillup". Given that the range of a state-of-the-art EV these days is 200 to 300 miles, I tend to think for most people the range issue is moot. I don't personally know anybody who commutes 100 miles each way to work. Your everyday commuting should dictate the range of the vehicle. If you take a longer road trip a few times a year you can always rent a gas car for those occasions, at least until EVs and recharging stations are commonplace.

BTW, this whole range issue might be entirely moot if only we would go with more efficient body designs. With a suitably aerodynamic, lightweight body, 20 kW-hr could take you well over 1000 miles. That's enough for just about everyone.
 

gadget_lover

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At the risk of sounding condecending, the problem with adding a charger to a hybrid is that the average joe can't seem to differentiate between the different modalities. Folks seem to get hung up on one aspect and ignore the others. If people don't discover the drawbacks, the competitors will discover them and fuel the misconceptions.

So the average joe thinks a car with 100 mile range is in-adequate, without ever checking to see how often he needs more. The average joe looks at 0-60 times and declares the car too weak, without noticing that they don't drive their current car that hard. The average joe looks at spending $22K on a hybrid and thinks they are paying more for the technmology, then buy a different car for $30K and finance it.

I can hand my 70 year old mother the keys to my Prius, and after explaining that the gear selector is funny, she can drive it. No hassles. No learning curve. She likes it enough that she's said she would want to buy one if her cadilac dies.

I don't think I've seen a "state of the art" EV that seats 5 and has a 200 to 300 mile range. Which one was that?

As for filling stations... There are formulas for determining the way cars would move in and out of a filling station. My local Shell station has 16 pumps, and every time I go by at least 7 are in use. It takes me 5 minutes to pump my 10 gallons. How many charging stations would be needed to handle just 7 cars with a 15 minute charge each? In other words, to fill 7 cars every 5 minutes, how many chargers does my station need?

getting back on topic... In essence, the current hybrids are a good way to get the public used to a different way of doing things, and are an excellent stepping stone to the next generation of EV or Plug in hybrids. You just have to get the average joe used to one thing at a time.

Daniel
P.S. A 1000 mile trip on 20 kwh would be fantastic. That's 20 wh per mile, which is 10 times better than the best figures I've seen. I'd like to see the math for the Cd and frontal area for a car big enough for two people to sit in (not lay) side by side.
 

jtr1962

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[ QUOTE ]
gadget_lover said:
At the risk of sounding condecending, the problem with adding a charger to a hybrid is that the average joe can't seem to differentiate between the different modalities.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's fine but why can't the average joe be educated on the subject a little better? And why must everything always fall to the lowest common denominator even if they can't be? There are plenty of people who would buy into EVs right now if they were available. Once they were out there, you would have yet more. Since hybrids already have all of the requisite parts, I see offering all hybrids with an "electric only" option as a cost-effective way to make this happen right now. The fact is that our polluted cities especially would benefit greatly from a zero-emissions mandate, and electric-only hybrids are a good way to make this happen.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think I've seen a "state of the art" EV that seats 5 and has a 200 to 300 mile range. Which one was that?


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about what could be made without even resorting to radical body designs. The fact that the automakers choose not to is because they would ultimately make less profit on a vehicle that only needs tires over its lifetime.

[ QUOTE ]
How many charging stations would be needed to handle just 7 cars with a 15 minute charge each? In other words, to fill 7 cars every 5 minutes, how many chargers does my station need?


[/ QUOTE ]
The point of home recharge is that not every user will be using the recharge station if they can recharge at home overnight, and more cheaply. My guess is that if every pump were converted to a recharge station there would be no problems even at peak capacity. Even if not, allowing two minutes to pull in/out and hook up plus 15 minutes to recharge, I get 24 recharge stations. Get the recharge time down to 9 minutes, and you only need 16 stations.

[ QUOTE ]

getting back on topic... In essence, the current hybrids are a good way to get the public used to a different way of doing things, and are an excellent stepping stone to the next generation of EV or Plug in hybrids. You just have to get the average joe used to one thing at a time.


[/ QUOTE ]
But why must those who are ready for EVs right now wait another ten or twenty years for the average joe to catch up? If fact, now that they're pushing fuel cells as a long term solution then EVs might never happen. What will happen is that fuel cells will probably never be feasible or make sense since a battery is always better from a pure efficiency and ease of use standpopint, and then we'll be left with the same old ICE in twenty years, perhaps with a hybrid twist to it. It is really that hard to uncondition people to the idea of using liquid fuels and also to accept "quiet" vehicles as powerful? Look how fast the average joe adopted PCs once they saw the advantages. They went from being something that only nerds have ten years ago to being virtually ubiquitous nowadays. My guess is we could do likewise with EVs with a proper reeduation campaign.

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. A 1000 mile trip on 20 kwh would be fantastic. That's 20 wh per mile, which is 10 times better than the best figures I've seen. I'd like to see the math for the Cd and frontal area for a car big enough for two people to sit in (not lay) side by side.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll use realistic speeds here instead of the 10 mph often used to showcase these ultra-long range EVs. First of all I base this on a 30 kW-hr capacity which is realistic with current battery technology (the 20 kW-hr came from the post before mine, but I think 30 kW-hr is typical of EVs these days). 30 w-hr per mile = 2400 watts @ 80 mph. Let's allow 90% losses so we get 2160 watts or 2.9 HP at the wheels. 2.9HP @ 80 mph equals a propulsive force of 13.6 pounds. Let's assume 1500 pounds weight and a rolling coefficient of 0.0035 (about the best we can do with rubber tires). This gives us 5.25 pounds for rolling resistance, leaving 8.35 pounds for aero drag. For frontal area we'll assume 15 ft² (about the smallest you can go for two people side-by-side without resorting to unnatural seating positions). This frontal area requires a drag coefficient of 0.036. This is just on the edge of possible. Remember that I purposely choose a realistic speed (80 mph seems to be what the median speed is on most rural highways these days). If you want to cut the speed down to 60 mph, then we only need a drag coefficient of 0.064. This is quite doable. Also, if you lose the requirement that the people sit side-by-side and instead sit one behind another, you can have a Cd of 0.072 @ 80 mph or 0.128 @ 60 mph. Either are quite feasible, especially the later.

I'll grant that I may be pushing the envelope here, but longer term (probably within a few years) we'll have 100 kW-hr batteries which are physically the same weight and size as today's batteries. Doing the calculations again for 100 kW-hr and 80 mph requires a Cd of 0.174. We had cars with Cds this good 60 years ago (I forgot the name). You can even up the speed to 100 mph and you get a Cd of 0.111 (still very doable) if you want a 1000 mile range. Research into laminar flow (which increases with velocity instead of velocity squared) may eventually enable even more efficient body designs without sacrificing comfort or drivability. Remember that we have already made a vehicle that can reach 81 mph with only a 1 HP human motor. I personally feel we'll eventually break the century mark under human power alone. The implications for vehicle design are staggering if this research is put into practice.
 

cobb

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They could use dump charging or some other method for rapid discharge and slow build up like a fly wheel storage battery or something like that. This way the battery can be charged with a smaller amount of power, then it can be dumped into a car in a quick amount of time.
 

Darell

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[ QUOTE ]
gadget_lover said:
think about it, the perceived problems with electrics come back to plugging them in. You can only charge them so fast, and they only hold a certain amount of energy. You can only go so far, then need to plug them in again. If you forget to plug it in, your electric may not be up to the required tasks.


[/ QUOTE ]
And yet according to the surveys that GM did with the EV1, the number one most-appreciated benefit of the EV experience was home refuelling. Plugging in is a benefit, and today it is being anti-marketed as an inconvenience. Amazing.

This "perceived problem" is real - a real problem in perception - a perception pushed to the media at every chance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Yes, I do realize this is what the public thinks. WHY do they think it, though? Because theyve done it? NO. Because they've thought it through? No. Because they've been told it is so. Now ask somebody (*anybody* who's actually done it or is currently doing it. Find me an EV driver who even remotely dislikes plugging his car in. Now find me the guy who enjoys filling up at a gas station.

I fully agree that the time to build cars for the lowest common demoninator is past. If the average Joe can manage to fill a car with gasline without killing himself, I have confidence that he can survive an EV as well.
 

cobb

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Not to dump on your parade Darell, but what can an apartment dweller do with a plug in electric car? Like I mentioned I would have to run an extension cord out my window along the sidewalk to my car. I am not sure if my complex would offer a spot to plug it in or for that matter where I work, at that, a plug in electric car wold be useless unless I visited my parents or had a small onboard generator that was very efficient and ran 24/7 to charge it over night.
 

Darell

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[ QUOTE ]
bindibadgi said:
Of course the beauty of the Prius Plus is that if you don't want to plug it in, you don't have to! It should run just like the stock Prius anyway if ever you are in a situation where you can't plug it. But when you can, it's even better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you! This is the part that makes NO sense! The current campaign of scaring folks about the dreaded plug ignores this salient fact. You STILL don't need to plug it in, but for an extra $10 in parts (the charger already exists for the regen!) wouldn't hybrids have a broader appeal? They could even use the same stupd buzz-line. OK, so you would want more expensive battery too, but still, I think we get the idea!
 

Darell

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[ QUOTE ]
cobb said:
Not to dump on your parade Darell, but what can an apartment dweller do with a plug in electric car? Like I mentioned I would have to run an extension cord out my window along the sidewalk to my car. I am not sure if my complex would offer a spot to plug it in or for that matter where I work, at that, a plug in electric car wold be useless unless I visited my parents or had a small onboard generator that was very efficient and ran 24/7 to charge it over night.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cobb -

No worries - I'm so used to having my parade dumped on, that it just seems natural. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif There's no question that EVs are not for everybody, and the problem you're having is directly related to there not being any EVs available. If we were all driving EVs, you'd have a way to charge it at your apartment. Adding an outlet is nothing compared to adding a gas station! Some folks live in places where they have electricity (sometimes made by local PV) but have to drive over 100 miles to a gas station. Odd that these folks don't usually think that gasoline is a poor fuel to use! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

True that if you were suddenly blssed with an EV, that you'd have a problem charging it. But I'm looking at the bigger picture of making them available for those who CAN use them to benefit all of us. There are some people who may never be able to use an EV, but there are untold millions of people who could use them right now while also improving their driving experience. And the more EVs that are out there, the better chance you have of finding an easy place to charge. Chicken and egg.
 

gadget_lover

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10 years ago I saw the first advertisement for an apartment with high speed internet access. It was in San Jose, and had a T1 shared between 16 units. They were able to charge a premium for the apartments and attract a fairly high class of renters.

I mention this because the same can happen as the EV industry continues to mature. Some businesses already give preferential parking to car poolers, and some already have charging stations (although only a few). I can see apartments adding a secure plug in the carports to charge EV's of the upscale apartment dwellers.

One of the seldom mentioned topics is energy theft. What do you do if you come home to find someone parked in your carport space all day charging their car at your expense? Or parked next to your business plugged into an outside 110 outlet you had installed for your own convenience?

I'd bet that if Cobb were given an EV, he'd find a way to get it charged. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Daniel
 
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