Lithium AAs equal/superior to 123 Lithiums!

David_Campen

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Jun 29, 2004
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I have reviewed the Battery Analyzer data generated by SilverFox from his testing of Lithium AA and Lithium 123 batteries and also the data from the Energizer data sheets for these batteries. I conclude that Lithium AA batteries from Energizer and BatteryStation are equal or superior to Lithium 123 batteries for high drain/high power and extreme temperature applications. I would hope that manufacturers of high performance handlights would now start designing their lights to use Lithium AA batteries instead of 123 batteries.

Here are pertinent parameters of the two types of batteries:

Lithium AA
Continuous drain rating: 2.0 A (Energizer)
Power @ 0.5 A drain: 4.5/3.6 Wh (Energizer/BatteryStation)
Power @ 1.0 A drain: 3.7/3.3 Wh (Energizer/BatteryStation)
Weight: 14.5/16.2 grams (Energizer/BatteryStation)
Volume: 8.0 cc (Energizer)

Lithium 123
Continuous drain rating: 1.5 A (Energizer)
Power @ 0.5 A drain: 4.1-3.6 Wh (various)
Power @ 1.0 A drain: 3.2-2.9 Wh (various)
Weight: 16.8 grams (Energizer)
Volume: 7.1 cc (Energizer)
 

4x4Dragon

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Lexington, SC
yeah im on the lookout now for a small single AA powered luxeon 2 stage light for an EDC.......

would be perfect to be able to use alkaline, lithium, or NIMH. maybe the new LRI Proton will be good enough......
 

HarryN

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Pleasanton (Bay Area), CA, USA
There are tradeoffs to each selection of battery size for a light. I am not sure that I have enough data yet to say that AA or 123s are better for extreme temperature conditions, as so far, Silverfox has only tested down to 0 F, which is not really "extreme", just "cold" (I have lived places where we were really happy for days that went above 0 F)

I remain conservative about whether or not the typical high end flashlights sold with fancy electronics and boost converters will work on a really cold day, especially if run off of a cell pack which is only starting out at 1.5V on a warm day.

At this point, I have taken the path with my lights that V battery must be > LED Vf + 1 - 2 volts at 0 F. (or colder) or it is potentially not rugged enough. From a battery pack perspective, this means at least 2 x 123, 2 x CR2 or 3-4 x AA. 4 X AA can be kind of large for a small light.

This may be just plain wrong, and power wasteful, but there are few things worse than being stuck on a road when it is (-35 F) and your flashlight does not work. When it is that cold, you REALLY need your stuff to work.

If I have some extra V bat and a resistor, it is virtually a given that it will start up. (blaspheme, I know). With the right setup and battery, it can also achieve reasonably flat light output and 75 - 80% of the power efficiency.

I can already hear the electronics guys talk about how great transistors work when they get cold, but just try to get them to "stand behind a cold temp spec" (and I do not mean 0 F) and suddenly, "that is not part of our plan". Yes, there are a few spec components out there, but few are found in flashlights.

Sorry for the long post, but this is an area I have spent a lot of time thinking about.

edit - wow - 162 viewers later and no one else has an opinion, or else they all think my post was too crazy to respond to. There must be someone else out there that has an opinion on 123 vs AA lights.
 

Big_Ed

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Oct 28, 2003
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Sycamore, Illinois
As nice and compact as 123 lights can be (such as an Arc LS), a TnC Key-Lux uses an AA cell, and isn't much bigger, plus lithium AA's are cheaper at retail stores, and are more readily available. Also, if a lithium AA isn't available, a standard alkaline AA will do just fine. You can't really say that about 123's.
 

Lynx_Arc

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Tulsa,OK
If you must have lithium for now it is a tossup as to which is best as until another vendor comes along eveready and batterystation are the only two playing the game as far as I know. At over $2 each unless batterystation keeps lower prices the around $1 123 cells may end up being cheaper later if somehow eveready manages to intimidate/sue batterystation out of the market. It takes less 123s to direct power an LED and in a boost circuit situation again the advantage is to the 123 cell as the higher voltage means higher effeciency unless you go with more AA cells.
Store prices favor the AA lithium. If you don't mind using alkaline or nimh the AA form factor rules.
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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Sep 4, 2002
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Shepherd, TX (where dat?)
I don't have anywhere NEAR the experience to really comment here...

But as of yet I have never seen a Lithium cell (whether CR2, 123A or AA) leak.

I have indeed seen alkaline cells leak, and not nearly as long in time as I thought to be reasonable.

So for truck lights I trust to work when I need them, Lith cells are a must! For EDC and "fun" lights, NimH or NiCad rechargables get the nod. The one exception would be the SL Stinger in my truck. I trust it pretty implicetly too....
 

David_Campen

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Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
674
Location
California
Hi HarryN,
Thanks for the interesting comments:
[ QUOTE ]
There are tradeoffs to each selection of battery size for a light. I am not sure that I have enough data yet to say that AA or 123s are better for extreme temperature conditions, as so far, Silverfox has only tested down to 0 F, which is not really "extreme", just "cold" (I have lived places where we were really happy for days that went above 0 F)

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite true. We need more testing. I really want to see Li/MnO2 123s tested at -20C and Energier and BatteryStation Li/FeS2 AAs tested at 0C and -20C. The Energizer Li AA data sheet does have achart showing that they deliver "70% Typical Service" at -20C as compared to +20C.


[ QUOTE ]
I remain conservative about whether or not the typical high end flashlights sold with fancy electronics and boost converters will work on a really cold day, especially if run off of a cell pack which is only starting out at 1.5V on a warm day.

At this point, I have taken the path with my lights that V battery must be > LED Vf + 1 - 2 volts at 0 F. (or colder) or it is potentially not rugged enough. From a battery pack perspective, this means at least 2 x 123, 2 x CR2 or 3-4 x AA. 4 X AA can be kind of large for a small light.

[/ QUOTE ]
I use the UK4AA handlight. This form factor with 4AA cells is very compact. It fits in pant pockets and even shirt pockets. One drawback to this form is that since it is not cylindrical it does not lend itself to being fabricated from aluminum. Currently I use the UK4AA with a 1W LED and also with the 4 watt incandescent. I would like to see it with a 5 watt LED module and a 10 watt incandescent, 4 Lithium AA cells are capable of supporting these loads, the problem is that the plastic body might not be a good enough sink for the waste heat.

[ QUOTE ]
This may be just plain wrong, and power wasteful, but there are few things worse than being stuck on a road when it is (-35 F) and your flashlight does not work. When it is that cold, you REALLY need your stuff to work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite so but I also want my GPS, radio and headlamp to work and they all operate on AA cells. A flashlight that uses 123 cells means that I have to carry spares in my backpack just for it.

[ QUOTE ]
If I have some extra V bat and a resistor, it is virtually a given that it will start up. (blaspheme, I know). With the right setup and battery, it can also achieve reasonably flat light output and 75 - 80% of the power efficiency.

[/ QUOTE ]
I carry enough stuff in my backpack. I don't even like carrying spare batteries (123s) that are only good for one device.I think I will resist the tempation to carry resistors et. al.

Big_Ed:
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if a lithium AA isn't available, a standard alkaline AA will do just fine. You can't really say that about 123's.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, another big plus for Lithium AAs vs 123s.

Lynx_arc:
[ QUOTE ]
If you must have lithium for now it is a tossup as to which is best as until another vendor comes along eveready and batterystation are the only two playing the game as far as I know. At over $2 each unless batterystation keeps lower prices the around $1 123 cells may end up being cheaper later if somehow eveready manages to intimidate/sue batterystation out of the market.

[/ QUOTE ]
I remain optimistic that alternate Lithium AAs will remain on the market. From the testing that SilverFox has done you can see that the BatteryStation Lithium AAs perform differently from the Energizers; I hope this means that they are different enough that they don't infringe on the Energizer patents.
 
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