Six shooter vs auto?

Six shooter vs auto?
The past few months have been busy on the CPF. Buzzing with the release of the HDS EDC series of lights the Lion cub.
I have heard a lot about these lights before getting holding them in my hand.
Both of these lights have little computers in them. Amazing.
The HDS EDC ultimate came with a plastic card and many pages of instructions. The brass Lion Cub came with no instructions, The operating instructions for both lights are on the internet.
Both of these lights look cool. Perform well have a reasonable good white light. They do have completely different personalities if you will. Different philosophy's. Both beautiful in their own way. Both have been talked about for months.

Imagine my surprise when earlier this week I learned of a light called McLuxIII-PD. I have never heard about this light. I have several alphs and consider them to be among the best lights that I have. The ALPH system is tremendous well thought out, very well executed.
Back to the McLuxIII-PD. The complete design is there in the thread to look at right down to the sapphire lens. Nice to really be able to see what you are getting with Don.
The design is another part of the philosophical difference between these lights that is huge.
For one thing there is no software interface in the McLuxIII-PD. At least I don't think there is any. That makes a big difference. Nothing to go haywire. Nothing to program. Nothing to click 2, 3, 5, 7 or 10 times Wow.

Maybe it is just me but as I use these lights I have learned a thing or two. For one thing I much prefer 2 levels to 20. I am just a high low kind of guy. When the light is on high I want it bright. Low is more personal. I like my low about 2 clicks form lowest on the HDS EDC. I also like the low on the McLuxIII-PD, it is just about right.
A little while ago I pulled the HDS EDC out of my pocket and tried to use it. It flashed twice every time I tried. It was locked. I had to re-set the thing to get it to work. I don't blame the HDS one bit. I am pretty sure it was operator error. I don't remember locking it. That is one of my points. Operator error? Hell it is a flashlight. One shouldn't ever have to operate a flashlight. I really like it ...But Operate it?? The Lion CUB doesn't require as much operating but you still need to operate it. It has a nice piece of easy to use software in it.
The McLuxIII-PD has 2 levels that you turn on by pushing the tail. I have no way of measuring the pounds of force required to activate the light but it takes less pressure to turn it on than the HDS light. Or by screwing about 1/3 of a turn. 1/8 of a turn takes you from off to low then the light goes to high just before tightening. A perfect action.

So to the point of this whole thing. I suffer from this addiction to lights. I have learned about what I like and don't like the hard way.
It seems to me that for as much as I love technology and flashlights I mean I have loved flashlights from my earliest years, Just look at these things, we have come a long way…maybe a bit too far. I guess that is my point here I bought a McLuxIII-PD the same day I heard about it. I didn't pay for it until it shipped. I didn't have to read through hundreds of messages to learn about it. It's like here it is take it or leave it, it doesnt look perfect because it doesnt need to. The McLuxIII-PD is a unique design. Unlike anything I have ever seen anyway. It is a manual light push it or twist it and it turns on and is bright and quite white. The McLuxIII-PD is like a six gun. Stick a battery in it come back to it in a year and it will work. No question. Will the HDS EDC? I doubt it. Lion Cub? Maybe .
The HDS EDC and LION CUB are like a .45 auto's to me.

In this day and age I think most people, who carry, carry a semi auto pistol. I don't really know. But when I have the McLuxIII-PD it sort of feel like I have the .357 double action of flashlights in my pocket. Make any sense to any of you?
Sorry about the lecture.

I really like all of these lights. They are all very nice in their own way. This little McLuxIII-PD really is different. Not just a different flashlight the way it looks. It is different because of the way it is made. I am pretty sure Don Assembled and tested this light himself. There is no serial number. It doesnt need one. It is unique unto itself.
Like I said I didn't pay for it until it shipped. Amazing business model. The way that works is amazing isn't it? Order something, pay for it when it ships. For some reason there is no need to prepay 3 months in advance. That is part of the philosophical thing I was talking about. Much more the direction I am interesting in going, personally.

Anyway I am going to wait for the sun to set and then I am going to play with my McLuxIII-PD and Lion Cub HDS and a bunch of others It is going to be a beautiful night here in southern California. Hey I bet the HAT team is at work at this very moment.

BTW Did I mention tthat when plucked just so the titanium clip on the McLuxIII-PD has a 400 to 500 hz ring? I will record it soo you can hear it if you guys want me to.
Great!!

Yaesumofo

Well written. Sort of the way I feel. I like my VIP with its three levels, and I know which level I used last. I considered the LionHeart, and the LionCub, and the HDS. Sounded sort of complicated, like my EliteMax, which actually is not too complicated, and you can always find "burst". I guess the VIP is sort of a Cold Python, six shooter.

Bill

i agree with you on just two levels of light out of a flashlight.
my arc4 has primary: lowest level, and secondary: highest level.
just takes two clicks from lowest to highest and vice versa. don't really use the middle levels.

In the service I asked which was better, I eventually learned the most important fact. No matter what the caliber,or design, or inherent accuracy...it MUST go bang! when the trigger is pulled. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Now I believe there is not a fail-proof anything. From personal opinion and experience, the ML3 probably will go bang 99% of the time. IF it counted in a true tactical environment, NONE of the above mentioned lights would be considered by me. In any non-tactical EDC situtation I would rely on the Mcgiz design. IMVHO, Giz is getting very close to the truth of everyday lighting needs.
Hope he hangs in there, Gransee was getting close too. Not trying to make a direct comparison either. Apples and beets. The McGiz program is unbelievable. Many kudos... O.k., flame away... I don't care. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yaesumofo, I couldn't agree more. (But you kinda lost me on the gun analogies).
Just like you, I also ordered the McLuxIII-PD the same day I heard of it (this is my first light from McGizmo). I have found that I only want two brightness settings, which are easily available like on the PD. I don't need more if the low setting has the right brightness. I really don't understand why people want these CCC (Clickity Click Click) lights, sure it is fancy to play with and show off, but for me it is not a pleasure to use. Sometimes it is just best to keep things simple.

I also appreciates how Don runs his business. The LionCub sale is IMO an example of how things NOT should be handled. I was shaking my head and thought the hole thing looked kind of dubious when I saw the signup thread for the first time. Prepayments should only belong in GB for private group buys.

Sigbjoern

[ QUOTE ]
nightshade said:
In the service I asked which was better, I eventually learned the most important fact. No matter what the caliber,or design, or inherent accuracy...it MUST go bang! when the trigger is pulled. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Now I believe there is not a fail-proof anything. From personal opinion and experience, the ML3 probably will go bang 99% of the time. IF it counted in a true tactical environment, NONE of the above mentioned lights would be considered by me. In any non-tactical EDC situtation I would rely on the Mcgiz design. IMVHO, Giz is getting very close to the truth of everyday lighting needs.
Hope he hangs in there, Gransee was getting close too. Not trying to make a direct comparison either. Apples and beets. The McGiz program is unbelievable. Many kudos... O.k., flame away... I don't care. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would anybody have any reason to flame.
Thank goodness I am well past any real life climbing over walls and running under-fire situations. In terms of my needs I think I have laid it all out. With emitter brightness levels and electronic design we are being led along a path that is pretty close amongst the front running flashlight builders. When it comes to design Don is leading us down another path. I like it and agree that Don may be getting close. We shall see. It is all about the philosophy.
Yaesumofo

Fellow Yaesu fan,

Good post! My first encounter with a microC light was the Arc4 at SHOT last year. I couldn't turn it on! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif I concur with you that 2 levels are quite adaquate the majority of the time! (It's what I EDC.) I also have a couple of Charlie's latest creations. (one UI rev1 and the other UI rev2. I need to send the UI1 back to George!) They permit setting them up as 2-level lights with benefit of selecting a low without changing a resistor. I'm am on the fence with this one! Simple usually equals robust. (I'm also not EMP paranoid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I quite understand the gun analogies! (I also posses a Charco .44 special that misfires every other pull! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and a 1911 I built I have no concerns whatsoever with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry

On a deserted island I want the six-shooter. It's almost guaranteed to work. If it breaks it's more likely that I can fix it than a semi-auto. For the world I live in, I want the semi-auto for various reasons.

I'm not too fascinated with the multi-level programmable lights. I appreciate the technology and understand why many people like them. I liked the three levels on the VIP I had. The two levels on the BlackBird is just fine. I'm still trying to figure out which Aleph I want. The Orb Raw I have has no brains at all and I love it.

So for flashlights, I guess I'm more a double action six-shooter kinda guy.

Honestly, so far as flashlights go, I carry BOTH types. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Simple is good for basic tasks, or when I don't need a lot of variety or versatility in what I'm doing... but I always have a more complicated light around for when I DO need to adjust lighting to circumstances.

If we carry on with the firearms example, my requirements are like this:

1) The revolver is nice and simple, is very reliable, and has a good action which is uncomplicated and easy to handle... but at the same time, I have to know what I'm doing with it, and try not to take it into situations where it'll be less than suitable for use. In this case, I'll use an Aleph 3 and a Q-III; mechanically, both lights are very simple - click or twist on, with two-stage functionality on the Aleph3. The low level on the A3's good either for indoors or close-range use, while the high-level or the Q-III are good for medium range outdoor stuff like walking or peering into corners. It's easy to access both light levels in the A3, and it's quick to go from low to high, or vice-versa. However, I find that the low-level light on the Aleph isn't completely suited for working in a computer case when I've dropped a screw, or peering into cabinets or various corners when there's some lighting around - the ambient lighting drowns it out so there's not enough contrast, or else there's not QUITE enough light to highlight everything in low... and the high level on the A3 or the Q-III is too bright for comfort at such close ranges or confined spaces.

2) The auto-pistol can be complicated, but can be versatile and takes a lot less user intervention for some tasks. For a full-auto firearm, I can choose between one-shot, maybe 3-round burst, and full-auto for when I need to cover an area. In this case, my flashlight is the LH, which has the 30-60 steps (in UI0) or 5 steps (in UI1). It's still pretty simple to use, especialy in UI1, thus giving me a variety of light-levels for various tasks; be it reading a book, box, or map, working inside a confined space of a computer case or a cabinet, or being outside in the dark. I can usually find a light-level which works almost perfectly for the ambient lighting conditions and other environmental factors involved, plus I use the force level set so I can always get a 'happy medium' so I don't spend much time scrolling for the lighting level I need.

Now the problem here is that, at least in theory, due to the complexity of the light using a computer-controlled light engine, we've got something more prone to failure. Of greater concern to me is that the interface may take more time to use, such as the case is with the HDS lights and which was epitomized by the Arc 4. Having to spend a minute going through 4-5 menus to get the 'exact level of light' I want, or even just clicking 5 times to get the light on 'high' is often more effort than I want to spend to shine a light on something. EMP is not that great a concern for me, as I'd probably be dead either due to the explosion or what came after, but it does seem to be a lot harder to fix or make a computer-controlled and programmable light than a purely mechanical solution. The LH's 'hold down for high' option is probably the best compromise between the versatility of a menu and the instant-access capability of a mechanical light, at least in my experience.

But again, as I've said in other threads which have compared similar things (the Aleph versus LH threads being the most prominent in my memory), it depends on the situation. I'm platform-agnostic, as it were - if the light works, then I don't care whether it's done electronically or mechanically, so long as it works properly when I need it. I don't go into situations where I'm likely to damage the lights and thus need repairs, as the type of damage which would affect the computer-controlled lights I have would probably destroy it beyond all hope of repair, or else be relatively easy to fix or replace.. and the type of damage which DIDN'T involve destroying the body would probably kill my mechanically-driven Aleph as easy as it would my LionHeart.

Well I like to have three levels. I use a medium setting on my arc4 as primary for a good brightness/runtime balance but sometimes you need more power and sometimes a really dim light is needed.
I never had any problems using my arc (after tweaking the lousy switch that is) and I doubt I would have any with the HDS. I never "operated" any kind of lion-light so I can't judge in this case.
I agree on the gun analogy, but I think it's just a matter of personal preference...

Chrisse

Hello Yaesumofo,

I have a different perspective on things...

I view my lighting needs in terms of photography. As the ambient light changes, my artificial lighting needs change also.

In Black and White situations, a simple on/off or two stage light works great, however, if you are out in various changing lighting situations, a variable output light really shines.

I used to have to carry several lights of varying powers to cover my needs, and I quite often found myself without the light that would work best for my current situation. With the advent of more powerful multi power lights, I find I have less baggage. Learning an operating system seems like a small price to pay to have "just the right amount of light" when I need it.

I agree that Don's lights are excellent. The best feature (in my humble opinion) is the versatility they offer. I had Darell build me an Aleph 3. I told him I wanted it "my way." No problem at all. It works beyond my expectations.

Now, if it only had a few more brightness settings... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

Tom

Are you saying that you use Led flashlights as your sole source of lighting for photography? I do this at times.
Do you have a color balance (white balance)setting for each light?
I posted a message about adjusting color balance of led's recently using a free filter sample pack from LEE filters. You would have a blast with these.
Anyway I have drifted off course here. What I am saying about the McLuxIII-PD really has more to do with the low key nature of the project. The high quality. The tool grade philosophy of these lights. My McLuxIII-PD on high is much brighter than my HDS EDC 60 ultimate (with diffusion).
That isn't exactly what this is about. It is more about attitude.
Yaesumofo


[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Yaesumofo,

I have a different perspective on things...

I view my lighting needs in terms of photography. As the ambient light changes, my artificial lighting needs change also.

In Black and White situations, a simple on/off or two stage light works great, however, if you are out in various changing lighting situations, a variable output light really shines.

I used to have to carry several lights of varying powers to cover my needs, and I quite often found myself without the light that would work best for my current situation. With the advent of more powerful multi power lights, I find I have less baggage. Learning an operating system seems like a small price to pay to have "just the right amount of light" when I need it.

I agree that Don's lights are excellent. The best feature (in my humble opinion) is the versatility they offer. I had Darell build me an Aleph 3. I told him I wanted it "my way." No problem at all. It works beyond my expectations.

Now, if it only had a few more brightness settings... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 3 'words' for those of you who find the 'semiauto' HDS EDC Ultimate overly complicated:

HDS EDC BASIC!

Always works the same; 4 preset levels, non adjustable. No switch 'lock'. No other potentially confusing controls and menus, etc.

But you still get what few would dispute is the finest production flashlight in the world, and I think 4 levels ARE MUCH BETTER than 2; especially since they are so easy so access in the HDS EDC.

As for me, I now prefer the Ultimate HDS EDC. I like having 4 levels, ALL of which I can set to exactly what I want. I like having the switch lock, as well; just like a safety on a double action semiauto, it makes unintentional 'ignitions' impossible, even though they are very unlikely even on the Basic HDS EDC.

The HDS EDC Basic was specifically made for those who might find the Ultimate overly complex to set up and operate. It's the revolver in the HDS EDC line.

And for the rest of us, who (would) appreciate a Heckler & Koch P9S Competition Model, there's the HDS EDC Ultimate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
In this day and age I think most people, who carry, carry a semi auto pistol. I don't really know. But when I have the McLuxIII-PD it sort of feel like I have the .357 double action of flashlights in my pocket. Make any sense to any of you?
Sorry about the lecture.


[/ QUOTE ]
Six shooters have far more moving parts and are a lot more complex than the average semi-auto pistol.
I know an old model 1945 .45 would fire at least twice with a critical part (The pin that the barrel swiveled around) missing. I don't think my S&W 357 would have done that with an equally important part.

Which can fire six rounds faster, and have you ever seen it done?

Sensai(‹³Žt)Yaesumofo,

I personally prefer the revolver. I am a country person from the Texas ranch country. I prefer simple tools that an ordinary person can use to win if he has the desire inside.

Thank you very much,

just steve

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Painter said:
[ QUOTE ]
Which can fire six rounds faster, and have you ever seen it done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this today's challenge question?
While I am not nor have I ever been involved in the daily use of weapons in my profession, I have used many types of weapons under a wide variety of conditions.
As far as I am concerned when it comes down to shooting I would say that accuracy is far more important than speed.
The same thing could be said about the manufacturing of Flashlights.
Yaesumofo

[ QUOTE ]
yaesumofo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Painter said:
[ QUOTE ]
Which can fire six rounds faster, and have you ever seen it done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this today's challenge question?
While I am not nor have I ever been involved in the daily use of weapons in my profession, I have used many types of weapons under a wide variety of conditions.
As far as I am concerned when it comes down to shooting I would say that accuracy is far more important than speed.
The same thing could be said about the manufacturing of Flashlights.
Yaesumofo

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, the switch/operation type of light doesn't matter all that much, since the main thing that two-stage mechanical lights have going for them is speed and ease of use, and given your statement that a firearm needs to be more accurate than it does the ability to shoot out rounds quickly, the computer-controlled light wins based on the 'accuracy' of the lighting-level it provides. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Otherwise, if you mean reflectors, then both types of lights can have them. Again, I have to say that which is 'better' depends more on needs and personal preferences. The McLux PD is a well-crafted light with a lot of thought put into its design and building, but I find the LH V2 firmware to be equally thoughtful in its concepts and implementation, and the light itself to be a delight.

Teacher, please excuse me while I sweep out some trash.....

It does not matter how big you are....you can be shot down.

It does not matter how strong you are........a grand mother can pull a trigger on an Army .45.

The only thing that matters is IF you will kill the enemy who is trying to hurt you and your loved ones.

just me

'better' Is your word not mine. It is clear to me that the whole point of my original post has passed you buy.
When it comes to flashlights guns knives and many other types of equipment "better" or "worse" are probably the poorest choice words to use when describing this type of equipment.
You may like a 9mm where I may prefer a .40. All of this stuff is purely subjective. A gun is only as accurate as the person shooting it.
My post is more about the philosophy, design, substance and execution of the of these various lights,
rather than software and switches and tint.
Mike please don't drag this topic any further off the edge of the cliff. The lion heart (I agree it is a fine light, I own 3 ) was not even mentioned in the group of lights discussed in the orignal post. Thanks
Yaesumofo


[ QUOTE ]
Haesslich said:
[ QUOTE ]
yaesumofo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Painter said:
[ QUOTE ]
Which can fire six rounds faster, and have you ever seen it done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this today's challenge question?
While I am not nor have I ever been involved in the daily use of weapons in my profession, I have used many types of weapons under a wide variety of conditions.
As far as I am concerned when it comes down to shooting I would say that accuracy is far more important than speed.
The same thing could be said about the manufacturing of Flashlights.
Yaesumofo

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, the switch/operation type of light doesn't matter all that much, since the main thing that two-stage mechanical lights have going for them is speed and ease of use, and given your statement that a firearm needs to be more accurate than it does the ability to shoot out rounds quickly, the computer-controlled light wins based on the 'accuracy' of the lighting-level it provides. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Otherwise, if you mean reflectors, then both types of lights can have them. Again, I have to say that which is 'better' depends more on needs and personal preferences. The McLux PD is a well-crafted light with a lot of thought put into its design and building, but I find the LH V2 firmware to be equally thoughtful in its concepts and implementation, and the light itself to be a delight.

[/ QUOTE ]

yaesumofo
ha ha well said.

i love gadgets, so i love lights that have tons of stuff to play with. but MOST times i want either LOTS 'o LIGHT or much run time.
i love the gadgets of levels in my rgb light, can play with it the whole time walkin, and i can color balance with it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif i wish even more so.

the other humans that use the lights might be thrilled with the gadget aspect of it for say 3 minutes, then they want one thing LIGHT, they dont have to charge the batteries /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and if i tell them how much it costs to put levels in (or even LEDS) they think a MAG would be just fine.
BUT
they wont USE the mag , HA HA HA HA
got-em /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif