HDS Ultimate 60 XR runtime test

Hi *@*,

I just conducted two runtime tests with my HDS Ultimate 60 XR. I used two different and *new* rechargeable LiIon cells, both have been charged only one time.

Testing environment:
One glass (0.3L) of water ;-) filled so the HDS was almost fully (but not quite) submerged. A piece of paper was put over the glass so the brightness change would be more noticeable.

Test #1:
- glass was filled with lukewarm water
- noname 750mAh rechargeable LiIon cell, charged to 4.18V (3.43V after test).

Runtime on level 1 before downshifting: 32min 15sec

Test #2:
- glass was filled with *cold* tap water this time, because the water got quite warm in test #1 and I wanted to eliminate any possible problems that could arise from that
- MP 700mAh rechargeable LiIon cell (the ones 'AW' sells over at Dealer's Corner), charged to 4.15V (3.33V after test)

Runtime on level 1 before downshifting: 35min 51sec

I am quite happy with those runtimes considered both of the LiIon cells were new and thus not 'broken in'. Rechargeables are known for quite significant capacity increases after a few full discharge/charge cycles.

-Connor

PS: I may repeat this test with the same cells when they have been used a bit more. I invite others to post their own results here!

Thanks for this interesting runtime test! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

VERY interesting.
Thanks a lot!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

I have an Ultimate 60 and I also tested it in a glass of warm water. I got 35 Minutes on Batterystation primary cr123a, 38 Minutes on the blue 700mAh LiIon rechargeables (after a lot of charge/discharge cycles) and 32 Minutes some cheaper purple 750mAh cells. I repeated the measurements and got the same results again (within a margin of one minute)

The water I used was about as warm as my hand and stayed at appoximately that temperture the whole time.

The runtimes I have seem very high compared to the specs on the HDS site. They would even qualify my Ultimate to become an XR. I bought it when the XR was not yet released, so it might have become one if it was produced later.

Hey Connor,

Using the water (and paper "backreflector") was absolute brilliance. Nice testing!

Thanks Connor.

The spacemarine answer confused me.

What is the standard runtime for a ultimate 60 (non XR) ?

If the price difference between the XR and the non XR is 50 US$, this is equivalent to 40 cr123 batteries (more or less).

Do you think Is worthwhile? (I ask because Im thinking on buying one)

Another (abusive) question: I think that it could be very very interesting to compare the battery duration of both flashlight (XR and non XR) on low levels of light

Thanks again.

Jose

(Edited)
Yaesumofo and Sarius says on HDS_Part6 Thread, that they obtain 30 minutes at full power with their non XR versions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

http://www.hdssystems.com/LightFaq.html has runtimes. Depends on batteries but the 60 should run from 17 to 32 minutes. XR should run from 32 to 38 minutes. I think I made a mistake buying XR over the plain vanilla 60 version.

Keep in mind that Connor's results are with uncycled batteries - they improve over the first 10 charge/discharge cycles.

Hello Grox,

While it is true that Nickle chemistry does show some increase in capacity during the first 50 cycles or so, this does not seem to hold true for Lithium chemistry.

A few gentle break in cycles with Lithium cells will result in more total cycles from the cell and the cell will run cooler, but I have not found that the capacity increases. The general rule is that Lithium cells loose some capacity every time they are used. The goal is to have over 80% of the original capacity remaining after 500 cycles of use.

Tom

Maturin,

HDSSystems once stated in their FAQ that they guarantee a runtime of 20 minutes for the Ultimate 60 (which would mean 30 min for the XR). This number is not in the FAQ anymore, though (for whatever reasons only Henry knows).

The lower level runtimes should be rather similar while the XR should last a little longer at all levels, any huge differences are only to be expected at the very high output levels.

Whether or nor the XR is worthwile over the standard ultimate 60 is entirely your decision . Would you be annoyed if you buy the standard version and get "only" 22 minutes at level 1?
I bought the XR because I only buy a very expensive flashlight every 1 or 2 years, so the price difference didn't matter all that much to me .. and I wanted the best model there is. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Connor

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Grox,

While it is true that Nickle chemistry does show some increase in capacity during the first 50 cycles or so, this does not seem to hold true for Lithium chemistry.

A few gentle break in cycles with Lithium cells will result in more total cycles from the cell and the cell will run cooler, but I have not found that the capacity increases. The general rule is that Lithium cells loose some capacity every time they are used. The goal is to have over 80% of the original capacity remaining after 500 cycles of use.

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom,

I have seen that this is true in general - that the Li-ion
gradually lose capacity after each cycle (very very small increments)

However I made an extreme experiement that would show otherwise
if the cells were "punched" at high currents.

I took three NEW 14500 cells, took them through normal charge and
discharge cycles and determined that they were same in capacity.
Then I doubled up two of the cells and shorted them to the third
cell + to - and - to + for about 10 seconds, twice. Each time
pulling over 20A.

After this extreme treatment, I have found that the single cell
that received the huge load of current increase in capacity about
10-15% /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif To this day I'm still using the cell.

I cannot explain why this is, but these are my findings /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hello 4sevens,

Interesting...

It kind of sounds like "zapping"...

Tom

For some reason, I was under the impression that running cells with that much of a reverse current would be quite bad - as in "unplanned event". Maybe I am thinking of primary cells ?

harry, bare li-ion in a series, reverse current can be a really bad thing.

if a bare li-ion cell in a series goes dead, other cells will reverse current into dead cell. li-ion has extreme low internal resistance, current could be quite large.

R123 discharges at 15+ amps, 18650 at much greater amps. example if one has 3x bare R123 in series and one goes dead. reverse current could be 40+ amps. certainly enough to get extremely HOT.

check out RC crowd which uses Li-poly packs for more info.

that's why most batt folks will post to only use bare li-ion in single cell aplications and watch out for dead short dangers. and to use protected li-ion cells if one doesn't want to learn about li-ion safety.

While I agree that this seems to be way out there on the danger scale, I still find the results interesting.

I have checked my Li-Ion information and can find no reason why the capacity would increase. My wild guess is that there may have been some contamination on the cell separator or electrode during construction that was "cleaned off" during this event.

I am sure that 4sevens is not suggesting that everyone do this and is aware of the dangers involved.

I prefer to get extra capacity (when needed) by a slight overcharge. By charging the cell to 4.23-4.25 volts vs 4.18 volts, you end up with a little more capacity. Of course the cost is cycle life, but before a camping trip I have been known to charge a little "hotter."

Tom

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
While I agree that this seems to be way out there on the danger scale, I still find the results interesting.

I have checked my Li-Ion information and can find no reason why the capacity would increase. My wild guess is that there may have been some contamination on the cell separator or electrode during construction that was "cleaned off" during this event.

I am sure that 4sevens is not suggesting that everyone do this and is aware of the dangers involved.

I prefer to get extra capacity (when needed) by a slight overcharge. By charging the cell to 4.23-4.25 volts vs 4.18 volts, you end up with a little more capacity. Of course the cost is cycle life, but before a camping trip I have been known to charge a little "hotter."

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops... I forgot to include my standard disclaimer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Kids don't
do this at home! In fact, nobody do this at all! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I actually did this on accident - I usually charge 3 cells that are
in a similar state of charge all at once in parallel. I just
happened to watch the 20 gauge springs turn bright red and then dim
(I think PTC kicked in) and then turn bright red again. After a few
cycles the spring vaporized.

Yes, the results are quite surprising. I am still using this cell
and it's still as strong as since it was "jolted" Maybe I can
send this cell to someone to evaluate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regarding slightly overcharging it, it really makes sense.
Two reasons. 1) The seals on li-ions currently don't last more than
three years - thats the way it is. If you'd like more cycles, it'd
only make sense when you are charging/discharging one more more times
per day. Say like in a laptop situation.
2) Even if you consistently overcharge it, it will still last enough
cycles before your cell is outdated. Capacities are always
increasing. Besides by your 10th cycle you've already broken even
compared to lithium primaries /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

my two cents...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif