lights with Tiros... why do they have less output?

cheapo

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I've noticed that lights with tiros dont have that much output... and I was thinking, why not put a high-output 5w LED within the Tiros.... it would throw further correct? Is there a heat issue?

-David /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 

asdalton

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

I don't think that there's any correlation at all between the output of a flashlight (lumens) and the type of focusing mechanism that it uses. A lot of optics-based Luxeon flashlights lack throw compared to what you could get from a Luxeon in a moderately sized reflector, and definitely less that a good incandescent (all reflector-focused) can get.

There also seems to be an optical illusion that causes optics-collimated beams to appear more intense at first sight (i.e. the white wall test) than they actually are when put to practical use. I prefer the beam pattern and performance of reflectors.
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

WEll, the more output, the more concentrated beam right? since you are using optics, the beam will always be the same, and all that extra output must add throw.

-David
 

Haesslich

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Cheapo - you're confusing 'extra output' with 'optics' right now - the problem is that you have to be very careful in how you design the optics, if you want to get the maximum benefit from them. The Surefire TIR and the Inova TIROS systems are examples of where they've taken the characteristics of the LED's emitter into account when they created the optic, and used the material and the shape of the optic itself to allow most of the light being generated by the emitter to actually go out of the front of the light. This means that the throw is improved somewhat, since the photons are all heading in a specific direction, meaning there's more usable light at the end of that spot.

HOWEVER, that does not increase the output by itself - the raw output of the LED counts for more than anything when it comes to throw, as even a perfectly designed optic can only focus as much light as the light source can provide. If there's less light in the first place, then your throw will be significantly reduced, or at least less useful at the distance you're throwing... to the point where the ambient lighting is washing out the spot.

Total Internal Reflection or any optics in general have problems with losing light in the material composing the optic as well - you lose some of it due to the photons being reflected or redirected to somewhere inside the optic or out of the spot you're throwing, due to diffraction based on the material's refractive index as well as the shape of the optics. The TIR and TIROS optics make use of CAD/CAM to design them so that they don't lose half their light to the shape of the optic, and the materials that they use in them have been picked and had their indexes factored into the design of the optic.

In comparison, a reflector is a LOT easier to design as there you mostly worry about the shape of the reflector and the material of the lens, and whether you're stippling the reflector to intentionally diffuse the light or not. If you don't stipple the reflector, the throw is increased slightly, and using a coated UCL lens means that less light is being lost inside the head due to reflection from the lens material, and refraction is reduced by the UCL material. With a proper reflector that takes into account the way the emitter works, you'll get more throw out of the reflector-based head... as long as it's big enough and angled properly to send the photons out the front.

As to why they don't use LuxV's for more output? The reason is simple - they're got FOUR emitter surfaces and to try to focus them all would be a nightmare, and the extra heat and emitting surfaces involved (which would increase the difficulty of using a reflector, much less an optic which has to take into account four light sources) isn't worth the expenditure of resources, especially as better technology is just around the corner (like the K2).

Also, one more thing to consider with throw is the distance of the target you're lighting up - a tight hotspot may show up more intensely on a wall or on the part of the target you're highlighting... but at 50 yards that tight hotspot is SMALLER to your eyes than the big, even flood of a proper reflector. So yes, there'll be more light focused on that one spot, but you'll have a harder time making out what the target is, based on that small part of the elbow you've lit up, rather than a slightly dimmer (but bigger) spot which shows the chest and arm of a guy holding a gun on you.
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

What if, for example, Surefire made a L4 with tiros ... same emitter and everything. If they had the same sized hotspot, would it throw further than the new kl3? So the heat is indeed a factor... why would that be a problem? Tiros is made from glass.

Oh yeah... what is the K2?


-David
 

IsaacHayes

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Ok, if SF made a "l4" with Trios and same sized hotspot as say a kl3, then yes it would be brighter. Because the luxeonV (5w) puts out more lumens (photons) than a luxIII, and if the hotspot is the same size, then there will be more photons in that hotspot, making it brighter.
The 5w has a larger die (area that emits light) and thus the hotspot would probably be bigger than a kl3, unless the optic was bigger than in a kl3 to compensate for it...

I saw a KL3 and it didn't look glas to me. Looks like it was injection molded, it had some weird tunnles and such through the sides of it..?

The K2 is the next generation luxeon from lumileds. It supposedly can run at 1.5amps and put out around 130lumens with the same size die as a luxeonI/III. So it will throw even better than luxIII's.
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Well then, why dont they do that... why not put a lux V behind Tiros?

-David
 

Zelandeth

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Simple answer there is that it wouldn't work. The Lux V has a far larger light emission area (Effectively it's four Lux I dice in a 2 by 2 square), as a result, the beam would not be so well focused. That's why so large reflectors are needed to get a spot beam from a Lux V compared to a Lux I/III.
 

voodoogreg

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

I find the TIROS to be very bright on say a KL-1 4th gen, and my no sold T2. snide comments aside, It gives'the it
KL-1 a piercing throw, with a enough spread at 20Ft and on to really light up an area. Ith throw's as far as my HDS basic60, imho a well done reflectored lux III.
I was under the assuption the TIROS was made specifically to get as much light out the front as possible? VDG
 

Size15's

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

May be larger LEDs (perhaps like the LuxeonV?) require larger optics?
How large?
May be that is what SAIC, SureFire and LumiLeds are in the process of finding out in their research for DARPA?

Where would one go online to catch sneaky peeks of such things?

Al
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

well, I am sure that they could make Tiros that fits a lux V. Why dont they just overdrive a lux III and add optics? I just dont understand why the lights with TIROS have so little output.

-David
 

voodoogreg

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

I just don't get this little output thing!I have a BB next gen 750ma sammie with a reflector,minimag on loan and the KL-1 at i think 350-400ma out throw's it and seams to be noticably brighter. could you maybe give us some light's you own that this is happening in for referance? VDG
 

jeffb

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

I agree, I have a "new" style KL1 on an E1e and it is an extremely focused, bright beam...............not much flood, but consistent with most "optics". I just "eyeballed", compared to McLuxPD, a Q3, and a Lion"Cub", which is not really fair comparing reflectored and it was not as bright (expected), but pretty good! (just as a note, the beam color is more "yellow", but not noticable UNLESS comparing and certainly not objectionable)

I have also played with the Inova's that have "tiros" and they were exceptional (and bright!) lights (again more focused!)

just my opinions!

jeffb

I also grabbed a Jet's 22 Blackbird that has an NX-01 optic, the "hotspots", while different size, look very comparable! (brightness)
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Just to clarrify to all who dont understand... look here:

www.flashlightreviews.com

Now look at all the lights with Tiros, and look at the light with Tiros with the most output-Inova T3, it has 28 output. My question was, why dont lights with TIROS have more output?

-David
 

voodoogreg

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Brother, by rough quick count there are 6-7 lights rating higher then "28",with an optic, much less a TIROS, as long as you going by that # only.

I really truly, honestly don't understand your point nor do i agree with it's validity using just that parmeter. VDG
 

kongfuchicken

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

My guess is, manufacturers don't overdrive their leds because they don't want people returning burned out lights after turning it on and leaving it somewhere for hours...
Using an optic to obtain a tighter beam might give the illusion of having a lot of light while driving it at a relatively safe level.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I obviously don't know what I'm talking about... just a guess.
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

[ QUOTE ]
voodoogreg said:
Brother, by rough quick count there are 6-7 lights rating higher then "28",with an optic, much less a TIROS, as long as you going by that # only.

I really truly, honestly don't understand your point nor do i agree with it's validity using just that parmeter. VDG

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean small lights with the glass type Tiros (inova and Surefire type)... The reason why you dont understand my point is because-its a question...there is no no point in a question. But, I'll ask surefire and see why they dont increase output in there TIROS lights; to all who have answered my question... thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-David
 

voodoogreg

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

[ QUOTE ]
kongfuchicken said:
My guess is, manufacturers don't overdrive their leds because they don't want people returning burned out lights after turning it on and leaving it somewhere for hours...
Using an optic to obtain a tighter beam might give the illusion of having a lot of light while driving it at a relatively safe level.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I obviously don't know what I'm talking about... just a guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a bad theory. the newer KL-1 is a 3watt driven at 1 watt.(i think?) VDG
 

jeffb

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

Just to clarify....................look here!

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/output_vs_throw.htm

What you measure and what you "see" comparatively, are different. I disagree with the premise of your question!

Why a manufacture, designs and builds, doesn't always equate with "we can build................so we will"!

As I tell my questioning wife (used to tell!!)...........call or write the mfg. and ask?
:)

jeffb
 

cheapo

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Re: lights with Tiros... why do they have less out

When using optics, output is converted to throw... so that link doesnt work in this situation.

-David
 
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