Firearms + backpacking = ?

This may be a controversial subject for some, but I'd like to get opinions from some other people on carrying a gun while backpacking. I've researched a lot of the gun forums, but a lot of those people tend to think that carrying anything less than a .45 is a peashooter. Let me just say I'm not a huge gun nut, most people would be surprised to know I own one. I have experience shooting(glock 9mm, .223 rifles, 12 ga shotguns), and I do own some firearms which see occasional use at the range, but I'm usually not one of those people who buy firearms specifically for self-defense purposes.

I'll be going on a week long backpacking trip in a remote area. I also do a lot of solo hiking in my local mountains. Having a wilderness so close to a major metropolitan area almost insures there are some suspicious people up in the mountains, not to mention some of the "farmers" up there.

So far I think i've narrowed the choices down to something around 9mm or smaller. I would like something very small and inconspicous (easily carried in a small camera case strapped on my shoulder strap) and lightweight. Obviously, this is not for protection against animals, I'm pretty sure a handgun won't be the best defense against bears or mountain lions.

So for starters, what caliber would you recommned? I actually like the .22 caliber revolvers that I've seen. Small, lightweight, not to conspicous. I know a most people say it's too small to be useful, but between that and throwing dirt, I think I'd prefer the gun. NA Arms makes a nice 22 mag revolver which is probably the perfect size I'm looking for.

I've also been looking at 9mm and .38. That would be the largest I'm willing to carry. I've looked at the taurus air-lites, they're nice, but a little too big and expensive. I want something more along the lines of the Kel-tec P11.

Second, the only ones I've handled is what the local gun store carries. Are there any other brands people would recommmend? Safety, reliability and ruggedness are a must. It will almost positively get wet, and probably experience some dirt or sand. Which is one of the reasons I am leaning torward a revolver rather than a handgun.

Finally, I really don't to turn this into a debate of whether or not I should be carrying a gun. I welcome your opinions and thoughts, but this isn't just a spur of the moment decision. It's something I've been considering for quite a while. I'm not absolutely set on buying one yet, but I am heavily thinking about a purchase soon. Also, as for the legality, I've been seriously thinking about that and weighing the risks vs. consequences.

The .380 Walther PPKs is nice. Accurate, reliable, and easy to learn to handle safely.

I spent a lot of years as a Glock hater. In fact I am almost ashamed to plug them most of the time. However, the fact is they make great outdoors guns. A G17/19 would be a great gun to look at in 9mm.

I have a G23 that has been on many outdoor excursions. As much as I want to hate my G23, it is the gun that I reach for more often than not.

A friend of mine carries a .357 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif when she goes camping. She's in the local rifle team, if that helps explain the size choice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

I would think you want a gun as small and light as possible while still giving you some defense power. The .380 caliber is about as small as you can go and still have some reasonable statistical chance at achieving a one-shot-stop. That is a semi-auto cartridge, so not exactly what you were asking for. The Walther mentioned above or a Sig Sauer P-230 are very compact guns in that caliber that would be a good choice. Thre is also a pretty good selection of compact guns for 9mm, especially the Glocks and similar ones.

In the world of revolvers, the .38 Special caliber is a step up from .380 and would also be a good choice. Smith & Wesson makes some good snubbies for .38 that would work well. The Airweight for instance. Probably widely available used.

Any of these guns have a good chance of being squeezed into a camera case. I am thinking about a case designed for carrying a 35mm film point-and-shoot camera, not a really compact digital camera.

If you drop down to .25 or .22, I think you are really going to fall below a level of stopping power that I would consider reliable and I think I would rather have a good can of pepper spray in that case. In fact, you should consider pepper spray as a good alternative to a gun in any case. That would probably be my choice even though I do have one of the guns mentioned. But of course that is a very personal choice.

The old CPF motto... Carry two! The .22 mag would probably be something nice to carry at all times on your body...

Carrying a larger/exposed holster may make others react poorly (from non-carrying hikers to those "farmers" that are probably more prepared for a confrontation than you would normally be; and could see your exposed carrying from some distance away).

Just my two cents worth--Unfortunately, I don't have any recent hiking experience because of our young family.

By the way, also watch the "carry rules" as National Parks and open lands back up to one another... Decades ago, I had a teacher that used to be a park ranger and, back then, they just did not want to see a firearm in the open (National Parks, at that time IIRC, did not even legally allow you to have a broken down gun locked in the trunk). God knows what the laws are now...

Have fun!
-Bill

I carry a .44 mag. I know you want to stay with a smaller caliber but I would recommend at least looking at a .357 5 shot. A can of bear spray may be even better.

I wouldn't be caught without an assault type rifle (with a pistol being back-up) in the woods, but thats another story/situation.

As said above, you seem to be limiting yourself with a .22 caliber weapon. As Lurker recommended, pepper spray, a can of Fox pepper spray is a good choice/alternative to a .22. Heck I'd rather get shot with a .22 revolver/pistol than get hit with the Fox brand OC again.

Reading all this literature about Glocks, it prompted me to go fire one. I still prefer a .45 round (Kimbers are my favorite) but the Glock does seem to come out on the tops of some extreme tests. It is simple to fire, but I was a bit scared decocking a Glock (the 26 I think, one of them small ones with a 9mm round, used to handling the Beretta M9 which was huge compared to the Glock I shot), no lever or any external hammer to fumble with.

So I am putting in my plug for the Glock 9mm line, the 17 might be too big, even the 19, the 26 might be a good sized pistol for you. Like Tommy Lee Jones in the movie US Marshal's "Lose that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock." (or something close to that.)

What part of the country are you in? Is this day backpacking with little chance to get lost, or is this a multi-day hike? Could the handgun be open carry when alone or must it be concealed all the time? There's a few questions I still have. But aside from that, here's my two-part advice for a "hiking gun".

# 1 Day hiking/Criminal defense ONLY:

You are correct in your assumption that you would most likely need a firearm for self-defense against humans, i.e. accidental run-in with pot farmers, portable meth lab, criminals who use the isolation as an opportunity to prey on campers and hikers.

In that case, I wouldn't go with a .22 under any circumstances. The Kel-Tec P11 is a good choice, so would pistols like the Glock 26, Kahr M9, a quality .38 snub-nose from S&W, Colt, or Taurus. Those would be my first picks for the .38/9mm level. .380 from an auto is roughly equivalent to .38 from a snub-nose wheelgun. The .380 from Bersa is a popular yet reliable choice.

The smaller and more concealable handguns like .380's, .38 snub-nosed revolvers, 9mm autos etc. are sound choices for defense against human agressors. When it comes to criminal defense, I am of the "The little gun you have, is 1000% better than the big gun you left at home." school. Often just the knowledge you are armed and not helpess will make an opportunistic criminal give up and go elsewhere before the fight begins. However, on the other side of the "wilderness defense" issue, animals do not know they are supposed to lay down and die when shot. There is more than ample incidents of even "small" vermin like rabid raccoons taking 9mm point blank to the body, and while they are certain to die eventualy, they aren't even slowed down in the immediate.

# 2 Multi-day hiking, Criminal AND animal defense:

For this, I would recommend a 3" or a 4" barreled .357 magnum, for a balance between portability, but not giving up too much balistics/velocity or sighting accuracy to a truly short barrel. If you insist on an auto, I'd recomend one in 10mm. Glocks are great, but you MUST have a good stiff holster that protects the trigger, since there's no additional safties other than the little pressure lever in the center of the Glock trigger. EAA also has some affordable 10mm offerings to be had in a more traditional auto format with external safties and all metal construction.

It may sound like overkill to the uninitiated, but .357 is actually on average, a pretty middle of the road caliber. To get a sense of this, consider that .357 is often the legal minimum caliber for handgun hunting in many states. The six-shot capacity (newer 7 and 8 round revolver models are availible from Smith & Wesson and Taurus, though) isn't much of a handicap, since any encounter taking more than 1-2 rounds, animal or human, is unlikely. Simply put, if TSHTF and you need to fire, whether animal or man, they should be dead or running, or you should be dead or running A situation where you're going to be cornered and in an extended firefight is just not likely, especially in the woods. And on the rare chance you are in such a fight, speedloaders, and some practice will cover you there if absolutely need be.

There's another advantage to the revolver. It's true that any quality modern auto and ammunition in good condition are incredibly reliable, but the revolver's abilty to chamber and strike a fresh round with a single double-action pull of the trigger might be an advantage you'd like to have, especialy if you're far from civilization. Unless you do some serious practice clearing malfunctions from an auto that you're going to bet your life on, you might find yourself with a useless gun under stress. With a revolver, your brain, even under incredible stress, is likely to at least keep telling your finger to squeeze the trigger again.

The versatility of the .357 magnum in the range of loads you can fire for a given situation is also probably unparalleled in any other handgun caliber. They range from heavy cast slugs in hot loaded hunting ammo, to snakeshot. Plus the .357 has the ability to be "down-loaded" with .38 special ammuniton. That gives you a whole other range of possibilities, from "+P hot" .38's for a mid-level load, to the lightest weight .38 target wadcutter loads for plinking or small game. That gives you a versatility that ranges from the weakest.380 auto, to the low end of the .44 magnum in terms of power. Not to mention the snake/varmint shot, which most all autos will have trouble with, even in a single shot mode.

If you look around, you can often find good deals on used .357's, as there's still a glut of them out there from when most police departments started trading up to autos in the 80's and 90's. They're also somewhat easier to buy used, revovlers last a long time with a basic minimum of care, there's less mechanical wear than with autos, and anything from Smith & Wesson, Colt, or Tarus should be adequate in terms of quality, and it's easy to ascertain the condition of a used specimin quickly, since all the major components, barrel, cylinder, and the lockup are easily inspected from the outside.

For an open carry, or pack carry holster that might see a fair amount of abuse, I'd recommend you look into Fobus. They make form-fitting polymer holsters that are no-nonsense durable, and can be found for as low as $19. They're not usualy anywhere near the top of the list for concealed carry, but for a good external knockabout utility holster they are excelent.

Also, assuming you haven't done so, check the laws of where you'll be hiking. National forests, state forests, federal BLM land, and state parks usually will fall under the gun laws of the state you are in. National PARKS, however, are completely off-limits to firearms, unless dissasembled and locked in a case. Check the excelent site www.packing.org for some great legal information.

Just my $.02. FWIW YMMV etc.

You can't beat the Springfield XD series for ruggedness, safety, light weight, easy of use, and accuracy for an out of the box gun. I would think the 3" XD 9mm would suit your needs (small, light weight, not too much kick). For some real stoping power go for the 3" .40 cal, but that's a lot of bullet to handle in a gun that small.

I own a Glock 34 (9mm), Glock 19 (9mm), and a Springfield XD .357 Sig. The Springfield is by far my favorite. It does tend to get slightly less accurate (not by much) if I put more than a case of ammo through it without cleaning it. However, I have more than 2 cases (>2000 rounds) through it without cleaning with no problems, misfeeds, or misfires.

If you aren't familiar with the .357 Sig cartridge, it's a 9mm bullet with a necked down .40 cal casing - purported to have much better stopping power than .45 cal. A lot of law enforcement agencies are switching to this cartridge.

I'm a backpacker and I have, on specific occassions, carried a firearm when in the backcountry. People will debate endlessly what you need/don't need and so forth, I'm not getting into that here. The operating principle you need to keep in mind is KISS (keep it simple stupid).

I almost always carried a Smith & Wesson 686 with a 4" barrel (.357 magnum) and at least one speed loader of extra ammo.

I chose that model for several reasons
-I was very familiar with it (important in any high stress situation)
-A revolver is EXTREMELY simple to operate
-A revolver is EXTREMELY reliable under adverse condiditons
-That model is "relatively" light and compact for a .357

If I were to suggest something else I would probably steer you towards the Springfield sub-compact XD pistols, probably in the .40 Smith & Wesson caliber (with the understanding that I have a strong personal dislike of 9mm rounds).

Having said that, now comes the usual warnings/advice/disclaimers...
-Know your weapon and know it well LONG before you carry it.
-Stay legal. Know where/when you can carry.
-Be aware that many situations can be made MUCH WORSE with firearms present. If you carry you should understand those risks ahead of time. (i.e. making otherwise friendly people VERY nervous so they call the cops, etc.)
-Carrying a firearm is a LOT of responsibility. If you aren't ready (or if you don't know what I'm talking about) then the answer is simple...DON'T.

(I am in no way a gun expert)

When I went to the shooting range, I shot a glock 26. the problem was that since I was a big guy(6'4") the gun was too small for me. Every shot it felt like it was going to pop out of my hands. I've shot lots of .45 pistols so I know what a bigger kick could be.

Make sure that before you buy the gun, that you not only hold it in the store, but actually shoot it, just to make sure that it works fine for you.

Well AJ, that's more than 2 cents worth but, well stated!


Karl

I have 2 .380 super handguns
an exspensive kimber arms super 38.
and a smaller much cheaper but good quality tangfolio super 38.
super 38 has a smaller slug than a .45 but more energy and velocity.
38 super is not a magnum round but close.

.45 is available as a magnum but I have never shot one.

if you wand a smallish easy to conceal revolver
I would look into Smith & Wesson's model 500
revolver.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/monster_1103/

years ago there was a head spacing problem with 38 super
which affected accuracy.

now it is a very popular round with competition shooters.

The compact Glocks have a third-party pinky extension available that goes on the magazine base plate for those who want them.

It changes the two finger + trigger grip into a three + trigger finger grip. Much more comfortable. I have them on my G26 mags.

Here's an interesting analysis of stopping power for .22 up through 12 ga.

From the chart, it looks like your best bet for self defense is a .223 rifle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

the 50 cal rifle that shoots this round costs less than 1000.00

I still do not beleve what I have read.


any one can buy the rifle and the .50 cal. MK211 Raufoss round

It is an armor piercing, incenderary, high explosive round with a high explosive charge of RDX.


http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976282769.htm

I am a nut

but ia m not a gun nut - not an expert

.50 cal. MK211 Raufoss round should stop a bear.

one well placed round will disable a f15 fighter plane from a mile away.

Hello,

I would recommend a revolver, 3 or 4 inch barrel, in .357 magnum. You can load it with .38 special if you prefer. Used Smith and Wessons are often excellent guns that don't cost too much. Same with Rugers, but they are heavier I believe. There are good self-defense loads in both calibers.

I would not go with the .22. What trustworthy .22 pistol is so much lighter and smaller than a small .357? Why use such a tiny cartridge if you don't have to? If you're planning on carrying a lot of extra ammo and plinking for fun, then a .22 is a fine idea, but if your purpose is only self defense, get at least a medium caliber.

If you want a semi-auto, I'd get at least a 9mm. Glock is fine. Walther is fine. Springfield XD is fine. H&K, Sig, etc. They're almost all fine, just get what you like.

Marginal calibers/loads like .380 auto and .25 are kind of ******* stepchildren, in my opinion, and it's harder to find good ammo for good prices. .38 super is different than .380 - it's a powerful round, but expensive compared to 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP.

I have a Kel-Tec P-11.

Good gun for the $$$, but can be hard to shoot.
it is a Full pull trigger each time, (no double action)
But seems to funtion well, and with the optional pocket/belt clip, it stays in place really well.
I slip mine inside my pants on my hip, with the clip on the outside, over my belt.

Do not get anything less than a 9mm, its gonna be basically useless.
You dont need a .45 though.
9mm is a great round, its cheap, and easy to shoot.
sure , a 9mm wont do CRAP to a bear, but really, neither will a 45.
But it will take care of wild dogs, etc.

The Kel-Tec is gonna be your best bang for the buck, and very carriable.
If you want double action etc, you are gonna spend about twice as much, and the gun may be larger.
When i got my P-11, it was said that it was the smallest full power 9mm pistol made.

Here, in West Virginia, it is perfectly legal to carry a gun while out in the woods hiking,
no permit needed, you will want to check your laws though.

If you have any questions concerning the Kel-Tec, please PM or email me.

~John