Is Maglite afraid of LED technology?

Simple question ------ why doesn't Maglite upgrade to LEDs and make them standard on their flashlights? It is the future of lighting, is it not? Why stick with old incandescent technology, and all the disadvantages of it such as poor battery life, poor bulb life, and bulbs blowing out on impact?

I think you might have answered your own question.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I think you hit on the answer -- it is the future of lighting. It is not the "present" of lighting.

Mags are much maligned, but really they are darned good lights. Tough, bright, useful for around $20. That's all the average working man really needs, when it comes right down to it.

If I was Anthony Maglica, I think I'd wait until theis technology becomes more mature. Why spend millions retooling for a light source that will change in a few years? Besides, a primary feature of MagLites is the ability to go from flood to a tight spot. Leds cannot do that right now. I'll bet that, as soon as there is a bright LED that is small enough for variable focusing, we will see LED MagLites.

Scott

I think another part of the equation is that we flashaholics have a somewhat skewed view about lighting. Every time I go to a campground people see my Dorcy Super 1 watt or my Gerber LX 3.0 and they are absolutely stunned. Most of them have no knowledge of LED lights beyond the indicators on a computer or VCR.

I guess my point is that we are SO far out on the edge of current lighting that we forget where the common joe is (thinking a 3d Mag is still the king of flashlights).

Mag still sells a LOT of flashlights as they are currently designed and I seriously doubt that will change until LED based lighting develops further and becomes more common.

As zespectre alludes - Flashaholics probably represent less that 1% of the market. 99% of the market wouldn't dream of paying $25 for a flashlight - however bright. Tony Maglica is a good businessman and will stay focused on the 90 percentile market - which right now seems well-served by Maglites as currently built. By the way - their chief market competitors are listed as Eveready and RayoVac.
"If it ain't broke - don't fix it".

Folks love to pretend to pick on Mags - but the reality is it isn't a bad light for $7 (AA). Great mod platform as many here love to do.

At $80 million/year revenue I think Mag is just fine where they are. They aren't focused on CPF'ers because we are a miniscule part of the worldwide market.

The company has said in emails that they have LED lights, and will introduce them before long. My impression from a couple articles I read is that Maglica himself nixes a lot of stuff before it reaches production.

They don't sell batteries, and probably make almost no money on bulbs. Most folks I know with Mags have never had a bulb blow.

With Mag's production power they'd make a ton of money on what would be inexpensive, high-quality LED lights. They could make SF 6Ps and sell at a profit for $20.

I think with cheaper 1 Watt Luxeons showing up in Walmart made by Dorcy, etc., even the common man will start getting an appreciation for LED technology. I don't think an LED Maglite will be that far off. And I don't think it has anything to do with the wide-to-spot focusing issue, as I can focus my mini-mag 2AA with a sandwich in place just as I would with a regular bulb. The spot won't be small and tight, but it can be done.

I'd be curious to see those e-mails from Mag. Never mind... I have a copy in my inbox /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
...Mag Instrument also spends enormous amounts of time and money on research and development to make certain that it maintains its reputation for quality and reliability. Mag Instrument also invests heavily in automation so that it can compete with the pitifully low labor wages in foreign countries. Consequently, the development and introduction of new products takes longer at Mag Instrument than it does for companies selling foreign made flashlights.
Mag Instrument also believes in products which will withstand the test of time. Fad products, such as the snake light flashlight which was popular for a short time, are of no interest to Mag Instrument. Mag Instrument's flashlight
products are designed to be lifetime products.
With regard to your question regarding the present lack of a Mag Instrument LED flashlight, please be advised that numerous new products are presently under development at Mag Instrument including LED flashlights. LED technology is a
rapidly changing technology and, in Mag Instrument's opinion, the LED flashlight products which are presently being sold are lacking in the type of performance and quality needed by a consumer.
Mag Instrument expects to introduce LED flashlights within the very near future. When they are introduced, we believe they will be the best LED flashlights on the market and worthy to carry the Maglite® name. There are some very good LED retrofits available for our lights at www.flashlightking.com

Thank you for contacting Mag Instrument.
Don

[/ QUOTE ]

I will be happy to forward the original message to anyone interested, just PM me.

I think this has been discussed before somewhere but I have no idea of which thread.

As I recall, it was noted that what Mag has done really well has nothing to do with inovation, rather it has everything to do with streamlining their production process.

Mag already has a giant portion of the flashlight market with their products cheaply accessable at pretty much any store that sells flashlights. The cost of the lights have stayed pretty much constant, as have the lights themselves. However, it has gotten cheaper and cheaper to produce these lights.

As long as the company is seeing nice profits, there is no pressure for them to change much of anything (and the average non-flashaholic has no problem with this whatsoever). Once LEDs really start ripping a hole in Mags bottom line, I'm sure they'll be ready to role out some LED product of their own.

If I were to venture a guess: Mag brand LED replacement "bulbs" for their existing flashlight lines.

Green, just email them asking about future technology or products. You'll probably get one back from Don like I did.

yup, I think this is the second (or third /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif) time I copy that e-mail. And maybe it was ABTOMAT making the same comment.

Deja vu, (all over again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I know this discussion probably occurred many times before, but I feel that there may be newer facts which would shed some light about why Maglight specializes in archaic lighting technology.

The email about Maglite upgrading to LEDs sounds promising though.

I feel consumers are being misled into thinking Maglite is a superior product when it's clearly an inferior product, regardless of whether you're pro-LED or not.

Look at how a Dorcy Luxeon 3-D compares to a Maglite Incandescent 3-D:



Really, does it really take a flasholic to interpret such a chart? What in the world are casual people thinking when they buy a maglite and get substandard performance? Yet there are products out there like the Dorcy 3-D Luxeon which are clearly superior to what Maglite comes out with. But I suppose when you have a company which is a monopoly in the flashlight market, then people unconditionally accept whatever junk they come out with, right?

Also, I could understand old-fashioned people wanting to stick with incandescent if that's what they're used to, kind of like DJs sticking to playing vinyl rather than playing CDs at parties. My local police department only use Maglites on their belt clip. If only they knew the advantages of LEDs..

That email (in Green LED's post) from Maglite is from the legendary Donald Keller, inventor of the Kel-Lite. That's pretty cool...

-dan

Maglites are more about marketing than quality. They look like they have quality, but on closer inspection, really don't. Sure they used nice aluminum work and have a nice design, but the quality of construction is okay. Design and innovation...yeah right. They just take the same basic design and add more batteries or cut batteries. Very crappy performance...but that's all I bought and all my family bought until I discovered Luxeons and Lithium Incandescent flashlights.

I recently modded a mini-mag 2AA with a MM Lite RYOJ sandwich from Wayne and I purposely dropped the flashlight in a sink filled with water. After about a minute, the flashlight filled with water. I remember every other flashlight that I have (Streamlight, Q3, Costco 2AA Lux, Infinity, etc.) all could handle a good dunking, but this mini-maglite couldn't, even though it had O-rings all around. So I have lost faith in Maglite products. I'll still buy them as cheap hosts for making cooler flashlights, but will never look upon them with the same reverence I have for better flashlights.

Of course, we are 0.01% of the flashlight market, so we mean little to Maglite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

solarwinds: I agree with most of what you said but take a look down at the bottom of Quickbeam's review (where that runtime chart is from):
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/dorcy_luxeon3d.htm
The Dorcy 3D is listed at $51.99. This is an astronomical sum for most non-flashaholics. The Mag 3D can be had for around $22.

Target has recently priced the Dorcy Luxeon 3D much closer (and in some locations possibly cheaper) to the Mag's price. It will be interesting to see if a great enough number of "average joes" opt for the Dorcy over the Mag without ever having had enough interest to go find a runtime graph on a review site. Dorcy should (or do they already?) print that graph right on the product's box.

One thing you need to consider is that most people don't really care how bright their flashlight is, as long as it won't fall apart (as real cheapies often do.) Mags still are well made--despite comments some people here make about their quality, their level of finish is as good as it gets outside of "high-end" lights like Surefire (and older SFs are about on par).

The Mag's basic design was very high-tech for 1980 when they came out. The issue now is that they haven't updated since 1989 and the marketing machine is working to convince people they're still state-of-the-art.

Fact it: If you're the average Joe who can't spend more than $15-20, wants long runtimes and a light that uses common batteries, your best bet is Mag-Lite and the company knows that.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about original (C/D) Mag-Lites. I think the Mini-Mag's time is flat over. Give me a small LED in that form factor any day.

I've often ondered if Don's working on any neat new tech with Mag. He's some kind of special advisor officially--maybe like technical public relations? Other than some work with ASP his recent inventions have been rather dated.

Re nobody wants to pay over $20 for a flashlight, Mag already sells the Mag Charger for about $90.

True it's a more specialized product they sell in fewer numbers -- just like an LED light would initially be.

25 years ago it seemed Mag was leading edge. It was the highest quality light most consumers had access to.

Today that same consumer can buy far superior Luxeon lights from Home Depot, REI, etc. It's a totally different competitive picture.

It's not just the low price Dorcys. An SL ProPoly Lux 3C is nearly as cheap as a Mag 3D, and has far superior performance, weight, and runtime -- 6.5 hr ruler flat regulated output.

If Mag thinks LED technology isn't yet stable or cheap enough, they should examine the SL PP Lux lights. Mindshare and customer inertia are the only things keeping their sales going, and that won't last forever.

Notice that the greater population hasn't bought Magchargers, and it's been around for 15 years and is more superior to normal Mags than LED lights are. The Magcharger has a very specific customer--the law enforcement market. You don't see people walking around with Tigerlights or Polystingers, either. My local hardware store has a few MC bulbs on the rack, and they've been there forever.

If you can get a D-size Luxeons down to around $20-25, and have a huge marketing campaign to inform the public, people will snap them up. However you'll see that at this point only one company could do that, and doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]
dano said:
That email (in Green LED's post) from Maglite is from the legendary Donald Keller, inventor of the Kel-Lite. That's pretty cool...

-dan

[/ QUOTE ]

Woa! I was corresponding with someone famous and had no clue (actually, I still don't know who this gentleman is, but I'll have to dig out some info on him).

I'll say this: the day Maglite comes out with a LED product, I'll buy it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I like Maglites. Dorcy looks and feels cheap (well, maybe not all their models...) compared to Mags.

...I'm back, did a little homework. Here are some links about the Kel-lite:
Kel-Lite???
Kel-Lite legacy
Some pics (this guy's gotta be a CPF member!)
Flashlights & liability article
Copy of US patent 4357648 (?)

[ QUOTE ]
pradeep1 said:
Maglites are more about marketing than quality. They look like they have quality, but on closer inspection, really don't. Sure they used nice aluminum work and have a nice design, but the quality of construction is okay. Design and innovation...yeah right. They just take the same basic design and add more batteries or cut batteries. Very crappy performance...but that's all I bought and all my family bought until I discovered Luxeons and Lithium Incandescent flashlights.

I recently modded a mini-mag 2AA with a MM Lite RYOJ sandwich from Wayne and I purposely dropped the flashlight in a sink filled with water. After about a minute, the flashlight filled with water. I remember every other flashlight that I have (Streamlight, Q3, Costco 2AA Lux, Infinity, etc.) all could handle a good dunking, but this mini-maglite couldn't, even though it had O-rings all around. So I have lost faith in Maglite products. I'll still buy them as cheap hosts for making cooler flashlights, but will never look upon them with the same reverence I have for better flashlights.

Of course, we are 0.01% of the flashlight market, so we mean little to Maglite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Bingo we have a winner here! Maglights are great lights, strong, nice looking, great public opinion they only suffer from one problem, their light output sucks.

In my opinion if Maglite doesn't come out with a LED light this year 2005, will be the beginning of the end for them. They've had several years of growing acceptance of LED lights by the general public and they surely have had opportunities and millions for development. 2005 or die.