World view of US response to Katrina

jtr1962

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I came across this article World stunned as U.S. struggles with Katrina and felt it would make an interesting topic. I was thinking of posting this in one of the many threads which already exist on this subject, but I felt it really deserved a thread of its own since it touches on some things not really covered in the other threads.

Interesting how our response to this disaster is being viewed from outside US borders. My only comment at this point is that the world reaction reminds me of similar reaction to the way the former Soviet Union handled the Chernobyl disaster nearly two decades ago. I'm really curious as to how the non-US members here are viewing this so I won't bother posting any more of my own thoughts on the subject, for a while anyway.
 

greg_in_canada

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As a Canadian who doesn't know much about how your National Guard works
my impression is that the NG help is slower in coming and smaller in numbers &
equipment than I would have expected. Perhaps this is due to the large number
of NG troops and equipment that is in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is not an education opinion, just my impressions. Not trying to flame anyone.

Greg
 

PhotonBoy

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I'm stunned by the lack of leadership. The handling of this single disaster together with the Iraq war is sure to mark Mr. Bush as one of the most inept presidents, ever. The costs to assist the tens of thousands of survivors and rebuild New Orleans (if this is even possible) boggle the mind.
 

PEU

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Here in Argentina one of the biggest cities of the country flooded partially in 2003. Here is the front page of our major newspaper that day:
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2003/04/30/tapapapel.htm

You can see the images are similar to the ones coming from New Orleans.

But, this title from the same newspaper 15 days after that say is all:

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2003/05/17/s-04501.htm

translated title: From the begining there is almost no crime in Santa Fe

There were some minor looting, and maybe some crime, but not as violent as cnn.com shows for N.O.
Maybe it helped that armed forces where there from day one

Some cronological covers:

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2003/05/04/tapapapel.htm
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2003/05/07/tapapapel.htm
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2003/05/08/tapapapel.htm

And now that Im browsing the covers I see that flooding happened on May 1 (Labor day) and in the midst of presidential elections.

I dont understand why the ppl is not moved from the flooded areas with heavy trucks or buses or something. Im sure there is enough trucks from construction industry that can help for that.

Not meaning to start a political debate (NO NO for CPF please!!) I only read canned responses from the US autorities.

If US can't handle the situation why not ask for help? maybe other countries are prepared better. Argentina asked for help at the time, and many countries helped including the US!!



Please keep in mind while you read this that: :stupid: :)


Pablo
 

Unicorn

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The US won't ask for help because of pride I think. We are the country that sends billions of aid, and thousands of volunteers to help in other countries when disaster strikes them. If we can send so many people, so much money, and so many supplies to another country, why can't we do so for our own states?
 

Sinjz

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I think the fact that the first couple of post reference Iraq tells it all. The world is looking at the US through that prism and to them no matter what, the US (and especially Bush) can do no right.

As for asking for help, the US has already done so. Rice has gone as far to flat out say we will accept help from anyone who will offer. We just have to get actual offer of assistance and not empty promises and hollow condolences.
 

McGizmo

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As a resident of the People's Republic Of Berkeley, I feel entitled to throw in 2 cents here. :p

A situation of this magnitude needs good leadership as well as many who will follow the leadership.

One must wonder about the number of folks who ignored the order to evacuate for starters, I think. Those who were actively looting and disrupting the rescue attempts were likely of capable body and mind to evacuate when the order was given. They elected not to. Why?

IMHO, our society has some serious problems internally and this disaster has brought this out for all the world to see. There is a decay in morals and ethics within our society and certain groups that can be ignored at our own peril. We don't need to look past our own borders for "trouble". The veil of civilization was removed by this disaster and the leaders and peacemakers did not respond in time to get it back in place. Some citizens who were either left behind or elected to stay have not behaved as model citizens nor have they shown any respect or justification for their citizenship. If there is too much reliance on external laws and enforcement, the individual may be found lacking in the ability to self police. :shrug: In an advanced society, responsibility and accountability for one's actions can be delegated to another or covered by liability insurance if one is a have and if one is a have not, then perhaps one waits for a chance to act when the streets are empty and the laws not in force. :shrug:

Although I am a citizen of the US, for wont of a better term, I believe I am guilty to a significant extent of an ethnocentric view of the lawlessness that we have seen and I suspect I am not alone in this. I don't understand where these people are coming from nor do I have a clue as to where they think they are going! It would be easy for me to cite ignorance as well as stupidity but that may fall short of the heart of the matter?!?!

With no idea of when food, water or utilities might be restored, someone to fill their hand with electronics is not showing a high level of understanding, IMHO! A shoppng cart full of expensive sneakers?!?!?! I submit that some of these people have been led down the garden path by marketing hype to the point that they are clueless as to what is really of value or needed for survival! :green: There are some souls that were lost well before the disaster struck!!
 

McGizmo

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C4LED said:
So.... would it be okay for people to loot flashlights if they didn't have any?

Personally, I would take anything I could get my hands on to aid myself or others in survival.

As for nonessentials, the stores that were looted were covered by theft insurance so it's OK to steal, right? :rolleyes: :thinking: For many, the question is simple: If you can get away with it, it's OK. This disaster is such a wake up call on so many levels it overwhelms me. Exploitation of opportunities when laws are not in effect are an interesting study in themselves. Did the initial settlers of this area "pay" for the land they took? How do salvage rights apply to a disaster area? If a ship is abandoned at sea, there are salvage laws that apply. At a base level, looting occured because it was possible. Civilization ceased at some point in NO for many. I am sure all we need is some more laws on the books and this kind of thing will never happen again. :green:
 

BentHeadTX

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More laws on the books?!
So looting, shooting, sniping police, rapes, violence and terrorizing citizens is not illegal? All I know is when I get back to the states, I will get some serious weapons since I now know that if anything happens... I'll need more that a bunch of flashlights! 12 guage with pistol grip and 16 barrel should take care of any looters.
Many cultures of the world consider the US a very violent society that is very pampered. The news crews are not helping to dispel that concept. It does show me that even in the "friendly" south... the only one to depend on is yourself.
 

offroadcmpr

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I think that some of the problems with our response to this incident is the lack of experience.
We usually do not have serious events like this. look at other countries where things like this is more common. the leaders have gone through this before, and know what to do.

The same problem with citizens. we are so proud, we think that stuff like this can never happen, and when it does, we are shocked. when it does, we do not know what to do, so annarchy arises.
We don't have millions of people dying from drought, or flooding like other countries(some African countries) we are not just prepared for a accident on a large scale.

Don't get me wrong, this was a horrible event, but hopefully it will make us more aware that we are not invincible.
 

DarkLight

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Put the same whammy on any other country they would be in a worse mess...

They could do better?

I still think it boils down to the looters staying on purpose...so they could loot..
 

Minjin

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Anyone who thinks that the media's portrayal of the events and conditions down south is 100% accurate is pretty naive. We should all know by now that the media sensationalizes everything, only shows the worst, and insists on making all events into a 'blame' issue.

Just because you didn't hear it from the mouth of a CNN reporter doesn't mean that things aren't being handled well. All the armchair quarterbacks on here and elsewhere need to realize that you don't have the smallest fraction of the info that the people involved have and they don't get to their positions by being morons. I'm sure they're making the best choices that can be made with what they have available...

Mark
 

Wolfen

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I think Don has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek(y) when he wrote that more laws are needed.
 

James S

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Anybody thinking that it's anarchy in the streets needs to go back and read Minjin's post again.

CNN is only interested in NEWS and it's NEWS when some people behave badly. By far the vast majority of people in NO are suffering quietly while being evacuated and not shooting anybody or looting anything.

Just think how our media portrays events in other countries ;) I recall converstaions around here about things happening elsewhere that we americans were sorely misinformed about because we could only watch the news. And i can tell you folks in Europe that your own news is no better at portraying America and Americans than our own is. You want to learn about us and our politics come here and talk to us about them :) You'll learn that we're very much like you in just about every way. Mostly we want to be left alone to do our job and take care of our families.

But please dont confuse the NEWS with the reality, even in a situation as horrible as this, it's both worse and yet not nearly as bad as the NEWS would lead you to believe.
 

McGizmo

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Wolfen,
Yes, I still can't find my tongue!

Mark,
I think your comment is most significant and unfortunately points again to who it is that our local news folks serve! As has been mentioned in the forum on many instances, that the reporters *used* to report the news instead of make it.

I don't think straight and level facts can compete with Hallmark and they certainly can't compete with WWF mentality or the other action/ anger BS that seems to be a good staple diet for the tube.

IMHO, some of these spineless and selfserving "reporters" and news departments are projecting their own warped sense of newsworthy on the publicin lieu of a balanced record of the facts or any thought out interpretations of cause and effect. Beyond politics, I believe there is a bias that sells and has been identified by the messengers. It may be nothing more than some psychological projection of the media based on personal inadequacies, ***** envy, Napoleon Complex and too many twinkies. Then again, maybe they just mirror societies interests and
:stupid:

EDIT: What James said! disregard my ramblings! :green:
 
Last edited:

bwaites

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McGizmo and JamesS have hit the nail on the head.

As I posted elsewhere, the idiots who stayed behind and are looting CHOSE to stay behind. They quite obviously were able bodied enough to leave, even if it meant walking, and lo and behold, they had plenty of time to do so.

I wondered at all the obviously able bodied people in the SuperDome, who COULD have left but didn't. Not hard to see why some of them stayed. I'm with the governor, Loot and We Shoot!

No one begrudges essentials, and certainly food and meds qualify there, (even flashlights!), but weapons, tv's, DVD players? Come on!!!

This is really a VERY SMALL contingent of people, who have a massive amount of media to play too!

As far as National Guard mobilization, it takes a few days, we are only in Day 5 folks!! My brother in law, 23 days short of being discharged, after having served in Desert Storm/Shield, and returning from Baghdad about 3 months ago, has been placed on standby and will be leaving from Washington State within a week or so if all goes as planned, but even National Guardsmen take a little time to arrange their jobs and families to leave.

We'll handle it, but those that stayed behind, by and large, CHOSE to stay behind. Those who couldn't leave because of health or whatever, would have had plenty of food and water if the idiots who CHOSE to stay had left instead of using up those supplies!!

That all said, when the National Guard and Army get there, I'll bet that within 48 hours order will be returned and things will get turned around. It's a little different shooting at a guy in body armor who survived Baghdad than it is shooting at overstressed cops and civilians who are exhausted and stretched to their limits!!

We will handle it, we have before, we will again!!

From another post I wrote elsewhere:

One of the issues is that the people who should see it coming and prepare, the ones who live in the area, are like all the rest of us, human. They live and work where there is work and a place to live.

You aren't donating to the country, you are donating to a group of individuals who have had a misfortune, just like the BILLIONS of dollars that the United States and it's citizens poured into countries affected by the tsunami.

They should have seen it coming, too, right? I mean, after all, it's happened multiple times in that part of the world! But like those affected by Katrina, they are people, people who lived and worked where they could find a place to live and a place to work.

You aren't sending money to the United States, because just like virtually every other disaster that has happened, the United States will mobilize the necessary money, skill, willpower, and material resources it needs to repair, replace, fix, or otherwise return to normal a situation that was caused by a force of nature. We've done it before, we'll do it this time

From what I can tell, it affected every group, every political party, every religion, and every race. Rich or poor, healthy or not, old or young, black or white or red or yellow. It affected them all.

No one asked anyone on the forums to send money they couldn't afford, or to send it some organization that was shady or fly by night. We asked, well, I'll be even more correct, I asked that money be donated for those of OUR group, our friends, family, or business associates that needed it. If you chose to donate to the Red Cross, that was your choice.

Does the Red Cross need money, yes! Does it need money in the richest nation on earth, yes! But why, isn't it the richest nation on earth? Yes again. BUT,being the richest doesn't mean it has infinite resources at it's every whim. Putting those resources away and doing nothing with them for years on end would be foolish, so the Red Cross, and all the national agencies, use those resources all over the world. In Iran for earthquakes, in the Philippines for Volcanoes, in SouthEast Asia for tsunamis, in Africa for famine relief. Those monies helped rebuild Europe after 2 World Wars, rebuilt Japan after World War II, have helped fund democratic reforms in country after country. Check your history books, see how many of those countries paid back the loans that the United States gave them after the wars! Check and see how many even tried! Check and see how many offered to return the money given as grants!

Those funds have helped fund the communist block's shift to a market based economy. It has helped Germany be reunited, has raised Poland from a stepping stone to be conquered into a democratic country.

Have those things happened with no mistakes, no errors in judgement, no accidents, no ongoing political strife? Have the agencies, or the United States government done those things without any wrong steps? Of course not, because PEOPLE are involved, and people aren't perfect.

Did the people who lived in the New Orleans area KNOW this was going to happen? Well, they KNEW it was a possibility, but KNOW it was going to happen? Of course not, they aren't all prophets who can foresee the future. New Orleans had weathered storms before, no storm like this has happened in anybodies lifetime. The COULDN'T know it was going to happen!

Like people everywhere, they hoped it wouldn't happen to them. Like the people in SouthEast Asia, like the people near Mt. Pinatubo, like the people in Iran in the earthquake zone, they HOPED it wouldn't happen to them!

While the United States deals with this at home, we are rushing aid to the families of those killed in Iraq in the stampede. Soldiers from Louisiana, and Mississippi, and Alabama, who have families affected by Katrina, provide safety to Shiite Muslims in Iraq so they can mourn in peace, even while those same soldiers worry about their loved ones at home!

A travesty, why? Because the government didn't build the dikes higher? Because some people chose to stay behind against the best possible advice? Even in the richest country in the world, resources are at a premium. No storm like this had happened, so do you prepare for the POSSIBILITY or use the resources elsewhere? In this case, and in hindsight, well the choice is obvious! But in MY life at least, I know that there are decisions that I should have made differently, this was one of those cases for a whole group of people.

Overwhelmed, I don't feel overwhelmed. We'll get it sorted out. Remember, only 3 days have passed, there is a little bit of panic, but we'll get it sorted out. We survived 9/11, Mt. St. Helens eruption, the San Francisco earthquake, the Galveston Hurricane (look it up), a Civil War, 2 World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, and so many more that it is impossible to name them.

We will rebound, a little wiser, perhaps, but we will rebound.

As for the idiots out there who are looting and stealing and shooting, well, they'll get theirs eventually. Order will be restored. The night is always darkest just before the dawn. The darkest human instincts always appear when it appears there is no reason to guard against them.

BUT, we will sort it out.


Bill
 

IlluminatingBikr

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Why is it President Bush's duty to coordinate the rescue/cleanup/repair efforts? This is up to the mayor, and govenor in that area. Unless they specifically ask Mr. Bush for help, I don't see why it's his issue.
 

turbodog

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NOLA is getting all the attention. There are people worse off than superdome residents.

There is a very real need in MS for help, and we won't shoot at the rescuers.
 

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