New Orleans holdouts

The prospect of police forceably removing folks from their homes in New Orleans looms larger day by day. The office in charge of the Military troops has stated that such an action would be a Law Enforcement issue, and his troops will not participate. Other groups, such a the Fish and Wildfife officers, have stated that, since they do not work for the police department, they will not participate either. That leaves a classic citizen vs LEO's scenario.
Seems that Officer Compass, the NO Police Chief, is concerned about "how it would look" on camara when they drag resistors from their homes. Was no concern about "how it would look" when they were plucking people from rooftops, or when they patroled the streets to stop looting. MAYBE the concern has come up now because, unlike the previous stated examples, THIS ACTION JUST AIN'T RIGHT.
Sad sad situation.....

It is a very interesting situation, in that constitutionally, those people cannot be removed from their homes unless they are served a warrant for their arrest in connection to a crime (this is my rather limited understanding, anyway). The state cannot easily force a person from their home.

There is another way that involves condemning their home, but it is a lengthy process. There is the "eminent domain" thing, which would also require some legal acrobatics.

Scary, scary situation down there.

Bob

That's where martial law comes into play. It's been used many times before during natural disasters to keep people from returning to a disaster area, enforce curfews, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.

BIGIRON said:

Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.

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To the best of my knowledge this is true.
Also if I am not mistaken there is no law that I am aware of that can be used to legally force people from their homes. Of course they will be forced anyway.

LifeNRA - I agree with you on forced removal. It probably comes under the heading of "we had to destroy this village to save it".

Well, emergency powers can be assumed, legislated or otherwise.

I got the impression that the National Guard was sort of preparing to assume some police powers if the New Oeleans police crumbled further, but made it clear that they weren't going to do anything other than support unless the situation changed.

If someone is prepared with 30+ days of supplies and have the means of staying healthy.

why should they be dragged from their homes into shelters, with better than even chance. they will be worst off.

if they are in eminant danger of dying, then it would be different.

most likely anyone that is that well prepared will be armed. would not want to be the one taking them out by force.

However if you let just one stay, and others find out about it (and they will!) You'd have even more serious trouble.

I'm not sure how anyone can be sure they will ever see their house or possesions again, and that is perhaps the most frightening thing about being forced out.

I'm not certain there will EVER be a correct action/answer!

I thought once you become a danger to yourself or others "which a holdout obviously is" ....

You can be arrested/detained/ psych evaled whatever...

whats the reason given for wanting to get them out at this point? The water is going down, so they can reach more and more "holdouts" to tell them what is happening and that there wont be water or power for however much longer and no food or other infrastructure for however long. If anybody doesn't want or need their help to survive and doesn't want to leave, who cares if they stay? Are they just concerned with their participating in looting?

In cases where they suspect the person may not belong where they are, asking for some proof of address might not be out of the question. In cases where the person has no ID or who's ID address doesn't match up with where they are claiming to live, then thats probably enough suspicion to arrest or detain then temporarily. Ship them out to a nice air conditioned and well stocked shelter far enough away before releasing them and they might think twice about going back to continue looting. Obviously here you're relying on the police to tell the difference between squatting looters and a well stocked family desiring to stick it out. That has some bad potential but far less than just trying to force everybody out.

Another thing to consider is that most of the people in some of these worst affected areas of NO proper didn't own their homes anyway. This was city apartments more than anything else so it's not like the building and property were lost to them. They can get a job and pay someone else for rent elsewhere. So while NO may be their "home" the apartment that they live in does not qualify as all they own in the world and I"m going to defend it with my life. For goodness sake, get out and wait to see what happens. Perhaps in the meantime you'll find a good job in Texas and find a nice place to live and meet some new friends and decide to stay. I only wish more people would get out of that area!

BIGIRON said:

Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.

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Hang on a second. What about during the Civil War?

C4LED said:

Hang on a second. What about during the Civil War?

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Actually during the Civil War Abe Lincoln suspended (if that is the right word) the Constitution if I am not mistaken. That is how he kept political prisoners in jail during the war with no charges or at least not any that would have kept them there in the first place. I am not sure if marshall law was ever imposed during or right after the war or not. Do you know if it was or not?

DarkLight said:

I thought once you become a danger to yourself or others "which a holdout obviously is" ....

You can be arrested/detained/ psych evaled whatever...

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I think the law says that you may be evicted for being contageous and/or posing a health risk to others. But it would have to be proven first. I am not sure how a holdout could pose a danger to anyone else but themselves.
We must be careful letting Big Brother decide what is best for us. Just look at all the innocent people who trusted the Government with their welfare and filed into the Superdome.

C4 - The Posse Comitatus Act came about as a direct result of the military occupation of the south after the civil war. It very specifically prohibits the federal military from enforcing civilian laws. It relates only to federal military, not the non-federalized national guard which can, I think, have police powers by decree of the state govenor or legislature. Been a long time since I had this course, so my memory may be a bit hazy.

BIGIRON,
Your memory seems very good to me. :goodjob:

I don't know for sure about martial law in the South after the Civil War - it sounds like it was.

Also, while I don't know the full extent of the Posse Comitatus Act, I always thought that was drafted due to the excesses of the Pinkertons--who had making money as there primary goal no matter who got caught in the crossfire.

BIGIRON said:

Contrary to popular belief, "martial law" has never been declared in CONUS. The states and various political subdivisions, through legislation, have police powers that allow curfews, etc. The federal military, both active and reserve and federalized national guard, may assist civilian law enforcement but may not themselves enforce local or state laws.

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Might wanna rethink that. Martial law WAS declared in certain counties in south mississippi after the storm.

I'm not at all sure about the state of law after the civil war. Maybe a history guy can step in.

I am sure about the Posse Comitatus Act. The Pinkertons were private cops, not military.

But keep in mind, as we talk about the letter of the law, what happens in the real world may, and probably will, be a lot different. Part of the problem with the Patriot Act is that it seriously blurs the line between levels of government allowing the federal government ot usurp some of the powers reserved for states by the constitution. Add in the continuing "militarizatuion" of civilian law enforcement and we have the potential for serious abuses.

The upside of all this is the unification of command. Only one boss - not several as we've just seen demonstrated.

The law does allow, and it is used every day, for an individual to be declared incompetent of making decisions for their own safety.

That individual may then be detained until he can be evaluated by a mental health professional and his/her status further decided.

If the powers that be simply declare all those who stay behind as a danger to themselves, and thus obviously incompetent to make appropriate decisions, then their forced removal becomes moot. The government relocates them to where they can be evaluated, at some safe distance, closes the access, and doesn't let them back in. They of course will be found competent, and released, but will not have a way back in.

Now, as to how they are a danger to others:

So far as I can tell, the public sewage system in NO is not functioning. That means that right now e. coli are multiplying at incredible rates in all the sewage left in the system, plus what has been left by those still there. Add in a little bit of enterococcus, which in many, if not most cases, is already somewhat antibiotic resistant, and you have a wonderfully deadly waste soup.

The last estimate I heard was that under best case scenarios, the system would not be restored to prestorm functioning for as long as 36 months or more. If the sewage system isn't functioning, where is the waste going? The ground is saturated in NO in the best of times, right now, !!!!

That's danger 1.

Then there becomes the issue of who takes them food and water, because those traveling in and out then become vectors, carrying contagion away.

That can be mitigated, but cannot be eliminated.

Then, how do you store food? This isn't a rural area, people in cities don't have facilities to store raw food for prolonged periods, and, in general, probably lack the skills to prepare the food in a way so that it lasts in the humidity and heat of NO.

Forced evacuation stinks, but sometimes what is right in the long run, hurts in the short run!

I'm a firm believer that if you own it, you should be allowed to stay and protect it, but as someone on this board already said, extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary actions. This may be one of them.

Bill